Learning Love the Hard Way: What We Wish We Knew

This episode’s all about the messy, magical reality of relationships—and how many of us entered them without a clue. We dive into our personal stories, the generational myths that shaped us, and what we’ve learned the hard way.

Here’s what we cover:

• The relationship advice that was missed
• How family dysfunction models our love templates
• Codependency, love addiction, and breaking toxic patterns
• Why being alone can be just as powerful as being partnered
• What accountability and emotional health really look like in love

We get candid, we get deep—and we keep it real. Whether you’re single, married, divorced, or somewhere in between, we’re here for the “WTF is this?” moments of love.

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, the podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author, turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body aging and all the. Wait, what moments of

Patti: womanhood and I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me?

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning to mental health, perimenopause and scalp cancer.

Yes, really

Patti: nothing is off limits. It's funny. It's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped.

Jan: Let's get into it. So, relationships, Patty. Yeah, relationships. Well, I'll tell you, I'd love to hear your story. I mean, uh, my mom, she never really talked about. Having a relationship. She always talked about if you're gonna fall in love with something, you just know.

I remember her saying that to me and I'm, I was always like, I'm gonna know what, well, you'll just feel it. And I mean, that's kind of her advice and I thought that was horrible. And her other advice, this is my story. You wanna listen to this? Yeah, yeah. I'm here for it is my mom, uh, she told me that she had sex.

Before marriage.

Patti: Mm-hmm. And

Jan: unfortunately, her first son, my oldest brother, died at birth and she said God was punishing her for having sex before marriage. Oh wow. And so that was her way of helping me with birth control. I'm not exactly sure, but. Those are the things that she has done for me. I mean, telling me about relationships, you're just gonna feel it and make sure you wait till you're married.

Now that's, I don't think anybody does that. Yeah, no. Well,

Patti: I think, no, I disagree. There are people that do people, there are some people who are. You know, very strictly Christian Catholic. And they do. True. They are, they do, you're right. The majority, I would say, especially in like western culture, um, definitely do, do not for sure.

Jan: She instilled the fear of God in me, and, um, it worked. And, uh, I totally regret that because my first relationship, my first marriage, this is my second marriage I'm in, uh, the first marriage was over in like two or three years. So, uh, did you wait until marriage? I did.

Patti: Oh. Can you believe that? I was 21. Oh wow.

You got married young. That's young. Mm-hmm. I,

Jan: I didn't stay married very long. I was like, what? I mean, when I got married, I didn't know a thing about relationship around, about sex, about, uh, nothing. It was, what was I doing? I have no idea.

Patti: Anyway. Well, you were doing what we are supposed, what we're told we're supposed to do though, right?

I mean, that's one of the things is that when. We grow up hearing about how, especially as women, right? That we're supposed to find somebody to take care of us. And, and especially in older and older times, is what I was gonna say. It's not what, what I mean, but like, but kind of, right? Like, so we go back into the fifties, the sixties, the seventies, right?

Even into the eighties. Like that's what we're, that's what we're taught, right? Is that the woman stays home and you, and you need to get taken care of and Right. You need to find somebody. So really. At that point, a lot of the goal is to find somebody who's gonna provide for you so that you can start a family and get your white picket fence and all of that stuff.

And, and that, that's very different. Now, as far as all that goes, like I am, I'm not married by choice and mm-hmm. Catalyst by choice, and those are just things for me that never. Felt like an urgent right situation for me. Like it wasn't a goal for me to, to be in a relationship, but my mom never really talked about.

So like my situation's very different in that, um, my father was a pathological liar and my father was very messed up, right? And so my mom really was kind of wrapped up in that. And so. When they finally, it's a whole, it's a whole thing sworn I'm not gonna get all into it all. But when she finally, they got divorced, you know, she was so in that, that there wasn't ever really conversations about relationships and she was really sheltered and she never got taught about relationships.

Yep. And she, he was her first. And she went from living with her parents and they were very, she was very sheltered, right into living with him. And so she never lived on her own or anything like that. And then they got married and they had my brothers and I, and so there was never, you know, really any of that.

And, and I don't remember her really talking about sex or, or anything like that. Honestly. So for me, by the time I was, and I had some childhood trauma, that kept me at a point where I was like, I didn't, uh. Like touch easily and stuff like that, so, mm-hmm. I was kind of like me, like all my guards were up, so it wasn't easy for me to date anyway.

But also I was overweight and I wasn't cool. So dating wasn't much of an option. It wasn't a big deal, right? Yeah, it wasn't 'cause I was like, me, whatever. Like it's not, I wasn't somebody that. I wasn't naturally attractive. Right. So people weren't pining after me in high school. Mm-hmm. And I wasn't there a lot.

So relationships for me just weren't a thing. And so when I finally was in one for the first time, I, I met a really great person and everything, but he was also an alcoholic. And so, oh dear. I didn't know, you know, I just didn't understand a lot about. What was respectful, what I should want, what you know, and, and he was very nice and he was, he wasn't a mean alcoholic.

He was a sleepy al alcoholic and you know, but I. I didn't understand the importance of getting what I wanted and understanding that it was okay to want

Jan: something different. Well, we call that neglect, right? In psychotherapy terms, is that, I mean, as I listen to you talk about our first model or template of relationship comes from watching our parents.

Mm-hmm. And that's the good news and that's the really bad news. Yeah. And so when your parents. Like, my parents were really struggling. I used to be in between the two of them a lot. You know, my dad would talk to me about how miserably he was. Then my mom would talk to me how miserable she was, and I'm thinking, wow, this is who wants her, who wants to be like that, right?

And so when I listen to you and I think about my parents' relationship, uh, my father was a drinker, uh, alcoholic, and my mom was severely depressed, which. Is, you know, and most of their life it was like a teeter-totter. And so I just wanted to get out of the house, which was stupid. I got outta the house. So I, and that's what I did.

I got married really young and then I had to figure out how to be in relationship. And this whole idea, what you were just talking about. Is, how do we know what we're looking for? Yeah. You know, um, when they're screaming and yelling in a family or a father that's doing that, or a mother, my mom would go raging and sometimes throwing things, you know, so I'm thinking now, is that good communication?

You know, you don't know, right? You never get a healthy, functional template. You get your parents. Template. Mm-hmm. And that's why there's issues.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even for that, right? 'cause I, they always say like, you date your parents or whatever. Like, you, you, like you said, that there's that model. And so like, in, and, and I was with this person for a, a very long time.

And so, but like in retrospect, when I look at things, I'm like, oh, I mean, what does an addict do? They lie. Mm-hmm. And so I was with somebody who lied about everything. My father lied about everything. Right? That's right. Yeah, but when I was going into it, I'm like, I, as a teenager, I'm like, nobody will lie to me.

I hate being lied to and I need honesty. And that's exactly the first relationship I'm in. I'm like, uhoh, but that's okay, but that's okay. And oh, you, but you have a good heart. And you know, there's all these things. And you know, he is a great person in all these ways. So I don't, you know, by no means like he's a great human, but in a relationship it was very unhealthy in that capacity.

But I didn't know any better and I didn't understand. How to do that and that it was. Well

Jan: then how do you know what to do this function? Right?

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing is my mom was very, uh, in general, like the guilt trips and that's like, oh, sure. And, and for everything. And so that was how I learned to communicate my needs was to try to, it's manipulative, right.

I realized afterwards it was codependent and it was manipulation on my end, which is very also normal in a, in an alcohol relationship. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I would, you know. Ah, you know, like sigh or make faces and well, shouldn't he know by me sighing and making a face that I'm having an emotion and that he should tend to immediately, right.

'cause yeah, because I didn't better and I didn't know how to express it and say, oh, I'm not feeling tended to, I feel like I would like a hug right now. Or I feel like. Whatever, you know, um, I didn't know how to do that, so it was emotional manipulation, even though it wasn't malicious. I just didn't know anything, so.

We're just not taught how to advocate for ourselves and our needs and our wants in a way that are healthy.

Jan: Right. Well, this goes into the whole, my whole category of everything that I've been teaching. Uh, and so again, I was thinking, my dad, when he used to tell me about relationships, he would tell me what you were talking about.

He told me that I should learn how to type. So that when I, you know, am unemployed or I'm looking for a husband, that I should learn the skill of typing and being like an administrator. Right. You know? And so, you know, I'm a little bit older than you are, and so this goes way back because that's what women did, and then they would drop out of their job.

And then they would have kids and they'd raise their kids. But like my mom, my mother was really pretty miserable as a mother. Yeah. Um, she was not enjoying it. And my dad was gone a lot and he was a drinker and so she was alone a lot. And, but what she taught me about relationship was never anything she said to me.

It was what I watched. Yeah. And I watched it over and over again. And I don't even know when I started, when I got married, if I thought, okay. How do I get functional in a relationship? I had no idea. I had no, uh, first of all, I had no sense of self either. Right. Uh, I didn't really know myself at 21. Mm-hmm.

And then talk about what I needed or wanted. I, I didn't really know that either. Right. So, you know, I'm just, p Melody used to always say, we marry what is familiar. Mm. Mm-hmm. And it sounds like that happened with you and your dad. Mm-hmm. With me, I went through quite a few different men. When I finally got divorced, after about three years, I probably, and I'm not proud of this, but I lived with four different men for two years each, probably throughout my whole thirties until I finally thought, you know what?

I really don't know what relationships are. No, I don't know what health is. I mean, I had gone through so many relationships thinking, okay, this is the one, whatever that means. Right, right. And then I, two years would go by and then I'd be like, I am out of here. I. Yeah. So I'd go out and I'd find somebody else and I'd recreate another pattern.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's where most people get really humbled because at some point you go, oh my gosh, I have no idea how to be relational. And that's what happened to me. Yeah.

Patti: Well, and I think that's part of it, right? Is when you're in these relationships and you don't even realize that you're in dysfunction because that's all you know.

That's all you've seen. Yes. Like you said. And so, and that's why I'm sort of in this space of like, I. I felt like over the last couple of years, I finally have found this like peace in myself where I'm not looking, I don't right now, like I can't even imagine being with another human because I'm really just like.

I want to be really clean and clear with myself and, and when I do interact with somebody in that capacity, I want it to be in a very clean and healthy way. And nothing's perfect and it's never gonna be perfect, but at least to go in with an understanding of. You know, not being codependent, how to have a clean conversation and express what my needs are, but also hear them.

And that's, I think, one of the biggest things I learned, um, because I did Al-Anon after we stopped seeing each other, because I still realized, I was like, you know, dealing with all this emotional stuff and the biggest thing that I learned in Al-Anon was that you can't control another person, right. One of the things that we do in relationships, because we're taught to expect big romantic gestures, and they're gonna tell, like you said, that you're gonna, you're gonna know that it's love and it's true love, and it's the one forever and you're not.

We don't, we don't talk about the fact that people grow when they change and that it's actually super normal. Mm-hmm. For people to like to stay together for a very long period of time is a lot of work and like a lot of intention and a lot of you had to have grown to together in a way. Mm-hmm. But not everybody does.

And I think that. That we try to hold onto these relationships because we're like, well, we're supposed to be together forever, but Mm are you And not everybody is. Some people do. Supposed to be. Supposed to be. Yeah.

Jan: Well, the thing is that if you look at the world and how movie, you know, you see movies mm-hmm.

They're all about those falling in love things. Yeah. And the fantasy that goes with it. And, and thinking that, you know, you're in love with this fantasy until the reality shows up and then you're like, holy cow, what do I do now? Yeah. And but every show you see, you know, when it's a big movie, it's all about the romance.

And I mean, I used to think. And when my mom would talk to me about relationship, that that's what I needed to have all the time. Right. You know what, nobody can have that all the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If we're human, that's the problem, is there's no way I can be having fantasy, having great sex every night and being in lovable and talking and feeling seen and all that stuff.

That just doesn't exist unless maybe you're, I don't know, some other planet, but not here. I don't even love myself every

Patti: day like to, I couldn't let alone another person, you know? I mean, I think somebody told, actually, my ex, when we were together at one part, early, early in our relationship, he was saying something about I.

Totally unrelated. I think actually it was before we were together and he said sometimes, 'cause he had been in another long relationship, and, and he was like, sometimes I don't even, we, you don't always like each other. Like, there are days and there are, you know, weeks sometimes where you're just like, ugh, you again, you know, like you love each other and it's deep, but it, it ebbs and flows like everything in our foods

Jan: and stuff.

Patti: And like talk

Jan: about that. It gets down to the idea of. Commitment, and this is what I think is also a commitment and accountability. Yeah. Is trying, you know, some days I don't feel, I've been married 35 years, 36 at the end of this year, I'm like, how did that ever happen? And I'm telling you, it comes from, I mean, maybe these are some great factors to talk about, but commitment and wanting to make it work.

Mm-hmm. And when we were struggling. We did something about it. We didn't just say, oh, it, it's gonna get better. Right? I mean, if I could say that to anyone. In fact, at my son's wedding, he got married about two years ago. I talked to all, you know, I got to speak mom, got to speak to mm-hmm. Uh, the Friday night dinner.

And I said to him, I said, remember, relationships are challenging. They're not that easy to be committed to spending time together, and especially when you have kids. To make sure you, you have a weekend together or you have a time for a date because it kids eviscerate marriage, they just take it over and you have to fight for the relationship.

And I said, so that's the number one thing I said. The second thing is, is to make sure that, know that it's a process. Sometimes it, it's ebbs and flows, but it's the commitment that keeps you there. And the third thing I said is if you're in trouble and you feel like you're struggling, get. Help. Yeah. And so many people don't do that, or they just stay in the, in the relationship and they're miserable.

And that's not good for kids either. So. Right. You know, this whole idea of relationships, I, I think we have such a warped. Kind of view of relationships in the United States? Well, I can't say for the rest world, but in the United States, let me say, yeah. It's that it's gonna be this wonderful thing and that we know how to do it and we don't.

Yeah, we don't.

Patti: Like I said, we don't even, and, and that's why I think it's crazy to me, like especially as. I get that long ago, getting married really young and people used to get married in their teens and stuff like that when life expectancy was shorter. Right. But it's not the same anymore. And like to imagine myself in my early twenties getting married and having kids when I don't even know me yet and like, I'm gonna, I, I don't know how to take care of myself and I'm gonna take care of something else.

And I think that that's one of the, the biggest challenges is that like, like we said, like how do you even. Show up for somebody else when you're not, don't know how to show up. Showing up for yourself. For yourself. Mm-hmm. And so I think that that is one of the things that I've learned the most in that relationship and even, and mostly afterwards in the retrospective.

It all was like, and really being able to dissect it and, you know, 'cause I've been in therapy on and off since I was like 10. So I'm very good at like stopping and dissecting and analyzing everything. And so. Like when I really have looked at it, the, the biggest thing is that so much of the attention that I had and that I think so many people have in relationships is that the, it's about the other person and the other person is supposed to fill these needs that is gonna make it magical, that is gonna make it work and all of that.

And I think that to really have something work, you have to start by like, okay, what, what am I bringing to the table here? And, and, and what is it that I'm looking for? And. Can I give that to myself and to my partner? Why is my partner expected to do all of these things and Yep. And to make me feel a certain way because that's where there's a lot of that codependency.

That's where we just are told to expect that it's gonna magically happen and magically work. Mm-hmm. But we have to work on ourselves and I think. Independent therapy is important, and couples therapy, if that's necessary, is important. Yeah. But it's like, it's a choice that you make. It's not just something that you're just like, cool.

It's gonna work and it's gonna be awesome. This, it's gonna feel

Jan: good, man, and everything's gonna be great. It isn't. Yeah. This is great. It doesn't always feel good. It's hard, man. It's hard. I, my mom, I was under the impression when I was growing up that that's how it was supposed to be. Yeah. Why was I wrong?

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's why I think about it now and like I'll go on dating apps briefly and then I'm like, I make it that a couple days. And I'm like, I just can't. I cannot right now. Imagine that and like I'm so happy living on my own and doing my own thing and like not thinking about other people.

Like I am just like, I got my cats, I got my friends and my family. Like I feel good about that, but. At some point, if I want that, at least then I'll go into Yeah. In a very aware and intentional space that I think it'll make it quite a difference for me. Um,

Jan: well, we're meant to be attached. Yeah. We're meant to be connected.

We're herd animals. I mean, and so. You know, I, I see today a lot of people are deciding to have dogs or cats instead of having relationship. There's nothing wrong with that. But ultimately, our, the nature of us being human is that we wanna be connected. Mm-hmm. And we don't really know how to, and I was just thinking of, you know, of course, uh, what we, what I teach, uh, therapists, and you know what, you've already outlined this Patty, you just said, first of all, you need to have your sense of.

That you're worth it. Your self-esteem boundaries. Like I, my mom never told me she forgot to say anything about this is that there's this such a thing as that if someone's swearing at you or calling you names or shaming you, that that's not a good relationship to be in.

Patti: Right.

Jan: I didn't know that. Yeah.

And that that has to do with boundaries, healthy boundaries. Mm-hmm. And then. My sense of self. I was 21. I didn't know anything about myself really. I was too young still, um, because I was just still trying to grow up in my family. And then as far as needs and wants, that all has to do with whether your family gave them to you or not.

Patti: Yeah. And

Jan: that's the neglect part. And then. I think the last part you were talking about is interdependence. How do you commit to somebody and talk to 'em about what you need and what you want and they do the same thing to you and you don't try to control them? Yeah. I mean, most everybody is like, shut up, sit down, and do as I say, so I feel comfortable.

Right? It doesn't work that way. It's like, what do I need to do on my side for me to be in this interdependent. With this in this relationship. And one of the biggest things I learned is accountability. Like I never, all those men that I lived with, I would say, um, maybe, maybe one was accountable, meaning they said what they meant to say and they would do what they said, and, and I never even knew accountability was important.

And since I did have two sons, accountability is everything in a relationship if you're raising kids because you need someone to show up for you and to be there and to be raising the kids together. That's the hardest part, I think, in relationships.

Patti: Yeah. I think the other side of accountability is also being able to say, oh, I messed up or, I'm wrong.

Yeah.

Jan: Oh, for

Patti: sure. And, and being able to say that because our, we, we get so caught up in wanting to feel right and not, and, and, and I think. Not feel like, like we want somebody to see the best of us, right? Mm-hmm. When we're, especially in the beginning of a relationship, dating and like, yeah, and like, you wanna be on the pedestal or whatever.

And so. I think that idea of like, if somebody sees you mess up or sees you, you know, so it's hard to step in and say, oh, whoops. Like, yeah, you're right. I didn't hear you the way that, or, or I said something to you. Mm-hmm. That wasn't very nice or I wasn't thinking about you at all when I was thinking totally about myself and that was really selfish.

Mm-hmm. And like, it's so hard for a lot of us to do that, but that like, oh my gosh. Leaps and bounds in a relationship if you're with somebody to be able. So just acknowledge. And that's accountability too. That I think is important. Exactly.

Jan: Important. Well, that's like a 12 step program. 'cause what they talk about is making amends.

Yeah. And because of our humanity and that we all make mistakes and we're hard to be in relationship with is, is owning when that's accountability. Owning. When I screw it up and I offend you or hurt you, and I have to just get really accountable for it. And that is, like I said, if. That's, if I could say any message to the world, if you're gonna have kids, make sure the partner is that if you can't have your partner show up and both of you be accountable.

'cause kids need security and safety. Yeah. And stability. And they need to feel seen and they need to feel soothed. And if parents are checked out and they're fighting with each other, it sounds like your parents were doing that. My parents were doing that. Guess what happened to us besides looking at them as the template.

We got lost in that family system. You know, that's, that's trauma. Yeah. So, yeah,

Patti: and my parents weren't even fighting, like, we didn't even know until the end really. Like they, they didn't fight openly and because she was very submissive and so Oh, your mom was, yeah. So it was very, just go with it because what do I do if.

We're not to get, like, you know mm-hmm. If I have to provide, so it didn't matter when the line would happen, it didn't matter when other things would happen, like mm-hmm. It was just sort of like, Hmm, okay. You know, and so that's, and which is, oh, so that for me, that I learned of not Right. Why I was with somebody who would.

Trample over my boundaries and I'd say, well, I don't want us, I don't want you to drink and I don't want you to, but Oh, but you did. Oh, okay. But you did okay. It's

Jan: okay. I'll let you off

Patti: the hook. Right. It's fine. You're good, you mean Well, like that was how I learned to, to kind of be, because that was my example in that way.

Mm-hmm. So I think that, and the other thing I was gonna say, unrelated to that, but kind of back what we were saying is that, um. Relationships get to look like you want them to look with you and your partner. And that's the other thing too, is I think that there's a lot of these, again, going back to like the fairy tale look of relationships, but not all relationships look that way.

And that's okay too. And like, you know, there's, there's just all different, and, and what I mean by that is like, for example, if I'm with somebody again. I, I like having my own room and that was, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Mm-hmm. Like you get to share space together when you want to, but man, I think it's really important to have your own space.

Yeah. And with your own stuff. And like, there's something exactly in that that helps you with your own individuality in a relationship. Exactly. Keeps, keeps you from relying fully. And so there's things like that and, and that works for some people and not for others. And like. I, I just think it's really important to say like, cool, let's figure out what works for us in our relationship together and not worry about, you know, we don't wanna pick a fence and we don't want kids, or we do want kids and we want 10 kids, or, you know, whatever it is.

And I think that's important too. I.

Jan: Yeah. No, that, that whole idea of um, having your own space, I mean, being in a relationship doesn't mean you're merged. Yeah. And you become one. I mean, even though they say, you know, we're one. Yeah. That's crazy. No, you're still individuals being, choosing to be in relationship and committed to each other.

But that and that time for yourself, um, to be alone, to do what you need to is essential for kind of being authentic in your own relationship. So. Yeah.

Patti: Yeah.

Jan: Yeah. I think this is very helpful. I hope

Patti: this is helpful for, I hope

Jan: this is helpful for everyone and we'll be speaking to, uh, uh, another expert, uh, besides us, uh, of Lisa Marilla booth, which I'm looking forward to talking to her about what her mother forgot to mention and for her idea of relationships and success today.

So.

Patti: Yeah,

Jan: absolutely.

Patti: And we'll include some resources in, uh, the website in case that is helpful for anybody. But just trust your instincts more than anything else because if you really sit down and listen to yourself, you know, you know what feels good and what's right in a relationship, you just have to not be afraid to, to follow that, I think.

Yep.

Jan: And I think the other thing too is for all the years that I've worked with some women about love addiction and love addiction is where they don't have a sense of self. And it comes from their partner thinking that they still have value. Yeah. And when women are in relationships like that, they're afraid to leave them if they're being abused because they can't live without their partner still loving them.

And when their partner gets angry with them, it's like. A hose get crimped, you know, at the hospital when you're having a morphine drip. Yeah. The hose gets crimped and they go into withdrawal. And that's all the more reason why women really need to have a sense of self and their own self-esteem and, and boundaries and grow themselves up.

And, um, but love addiction is really, uh, toxic for women because, and men, I'm not saying just women have it, um, but that's, that makes the relationship right there, uh, very. Dysfunctional. Yeah. So yeah. Well, thanks. This was super great. Thanks, Patty. I enjoyed it.

Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends, subscribe and leave a review.

Patti: And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional.

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest.

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. You can find links to both of those over at our website at things my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes. Thank you.