Anxiety Isn’t Just in Your Head, It’s Also in Your Body

In this episode, we’re going deep into a topic we wish someone had warned us about: anxiety.

From panic attacks to lump-in-the-throat discomfort and the reality of being “on edge” for decades—we’re talking about how trauma shapes the nervous system, and why healing isn’t just about mindset.

Here’s what we cover:

• Patti’s real-life story of anxiety from childhood trauma to adult healing
• Why “calming down” doesn’t cut it when your nervous system is on overdrive
• Panic, agoraphobia, and food-related anxiety
• Therapy approaches that helped (CBT, EMDR, ART, somatic work & more)
• Medication without shame
• The power of naming what’s happening in your body and brain
• Why anxiety looks different for everyone

This conversation is honest, emotional, and grounded in real experience. If you’ve ever felt like your anxiety didn’t “make sense,” this one’s for you.

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, the podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author, turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body aging and all the. Wait, what moments of womanhood 

Patti: and I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me? 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two, outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning to mental health perimenopause.

And scalp cancer. Yes. Really 

Patti: nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. Hi Jan. Hey Patty. It's good to see you again. It's good to see you again. How are you? I'm, I'm actually doing really well. We, like I said, did this level three workshop and it was really fantastic and I'm still kind of high from it, just feeling how great it was and having gratitude for it.

So yeah. So I'm all ready to talk about anxiety and bring myself down. Yeah. Perfect. It's perfect. Now here's the big question I have for you, Patty. 'cause when, as we were talking just before we started recording Yeah. Is what did your mother forget to mention to you about anxiety? Everything. 'cause did she have anxiety?

Did she pick it up really early from you? Did you, did she give it to you? Because I believe that if parents are irresponsible with their own emotions, that they, the kids absorb it. So yeah. Can you tell me a little bit of history about that? 

Patti: Yeah, so, so my mom never told me anything about anxiety because.

I don't think she realized that she had anxiety. She does though, I can tell you as an adult now, and seeing back then that she did, and currently it's very crippling for her. Debilitating, so Oh, really Sure that her, oh yeah. She's, so my mom is in a, a assisted living facility and she works with a lot of physical therapists.

She has a lot of, um, like physical limitations, mobility limitations. So she has physical therapy with her physical therapist. It's like five days a week. And they have gotten to a point walking is very challenging for her, where they have said You, you need support from a mental health professional.

Because we think a lot of the challenge at this point with walking is fear and anxiety. 'cause she gets, she's afraid of everything and very anxious all the time. So I absolutely got some of that from her now. Right. I had acute issues. I had, you know, abuse and things like that. So I think some of my anxiety came from that as well.

I have learned that, um, as a child, if you are exposed to trauma, it does change or it can change the actual structure of your brain and Exactly. And you, and you're therefore can struggle because you're, you're basically. Your fight or flight is always activated. Yes. And so it changed that structure. Yeah.

Jan: In fact, that's the very piece that I worked for two hours in this workshop teaching about that very fact that you just said. Oh, nice. Yeah. And what happens is that you end up the earlier it is. Probably for you. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: The, the, it's harder to work with because it's so early. The brain isn't that well developed.

Right. And it goes in, in a nonverbal way. It's in the, it's in the system, so in the autonomic nervous system. And so we become, I call you a sympathetic. Dominant tone. That's the tone that you have. Your sympathetic dominant, always on rev, always revving, going, going. It is like something's coming, and that starts very early.

If you've had trauma from one to four, like birth to like five or six? Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Yeah, yeah. No. What 

Jan: happened? 

Patti: Yeah. The abuse for me started when I was one and a half, so I was pretty much my whole until I was like eight or nine or something, so my entire childhood was like fight or flight, right. 

Jan: Dominant.

Your, your sympathetic dominant is what we call it. Yeah. Of it happening so early and your nervous system gets mm-hmm. Used to a rev. Yeah. So that's, that's what you're living with. 

Patti: Yeah, exactly. So for me, and I didn't, you know, when I was, when I was young, that's not, that was on language in the eighties that I had or that my mom had that anxiety or anything like that.

But I can recognize now. Many times where I was like, oh, that was, that was like panic attacks or that was anxiety, that was high anxiety, but at the time it was labeled whatever I was difficult to deal with or I was this or that, or you know, whatever. But, um, yeah, so I've had, I've dealt with anxiety my whole life in various, like, it, there's like low levels of, that's my normal.

Which is I'm hyper, um, I'm hypervigilant. Mm-hmm. And so like, and that's my normal, so for me, I, you know, like everywhere I go I have to have my water bottle for just. That's a weird thing I have. And then, um, I always know where the exits are. I always know who's around me at all time. I hear conversations that are happening.

That's why I can't like work at a cafe because I can't like zone out and just work. I'm always paying attention to everything. Right. And that's my normal. So that feels, I mean, that's normal. It's my normal is just to always be aware, which I'm working on, on therapy. It's hypervigilant. 

Jan: It's, yeah. Yes it is.

It's called hypervigilance. Yeah. 

Patti: So, um. But then I go through bouts where. I'll have extreme periods of, of panic attacks and super high anxiety where I can't really function and things like that. Those tend to be rare. There's like a few instances in my life where those have happened. Um, so I always have, so something must have 

Jan: been going on.

That in instigate triggered those? Yes. Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say absolutely, because it would probably come out of nowhere. Yes. But something came along and it takes you to a higher place in your nervous system. You actually, this is what we call it. You go out of your window of tolerance. Oh, what we call it, window of capacity.

Everyone has one. Yeah. And then you get really dysregulated, and then you're overwhelmed, and then you're spinning out in a panic attack. So That's correct. That's what would happen. Something triggered it. 

Patti: Yeah. And for me they would be periods of time. So like I'd have a triggering something that's occurring.

Mm-hmm. And it shoots me into a period of time where I'm disre, like I'm really can't control that stuff. And I get, so my first one I was in, um, I was in high school. I was a freshman in high school, and so I'd had anxiety younger, but I didn't ever really recognize that. But I was eating cereal one evening and I was like, there's something stuck in my throat, like I can't.

And so I told my mom like, I can't get it down. There's something stuck. She took me to the er. They're like, there's nothing there. You're having an anxiety attack. So that was the first time I'd ever heard of that. Oh. And so there was a lump in my throat that I thought was, and it was because we were flying back.

To Chicago where all my trauma really happened for the first time since we had left. But I didn't, of course, recognize that or anything. But that, I think was the triggering event as I was going back to this place with all this stuff that had happened and, and, and all of that. And so I. At that point they gave me Ativan and they said basically, how old were you when they were giving you Ativan?

Uh, I was a freshman in high school. Yeah. So, wow. That's 

Jan: pretty strong for freshman in high school. Okay. Yeah. And they were 

Patti: just like, take it if you need it as you need it. And I was like, okay. And so I would, I didn't ever feel like they were panic attacks, like, 'cause I've had them since pretty intensely.

Um. But that lump didn't go away. Like basically I just lived at that point with a lump in my throat. Like it just always felt like there was something there. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes they'd get really bad, like in class and things. So then I would step out and take my Ativan. And so, yeah, it basically was like that, and it kind of grew a bit because I had to chew everything over like 5,000 times in order to feel like I wasn't gonna choke.

So then I didn't wanna eat in public and eat around people. And then, so that's slowly built into a agoraphobia, which then by my like senior year in high school, I, my halfway through, I just stopped leaving the house. And so I was. For. Oh, 

Jan: wow. Did you not go to school? 

Patti: I didn't. So all of my teachers, except for one, switched me to homeschool.

One did not. So I did not graduate on time because of that. Um, so yeah, I stayed home. The, I would leave to go to my therapist. At that point, they had me on Zoloft. So in order to get my meds, I had to go to my psychiatrist. I had to go see my therapist regularly. Sure. So I would do that and that would be the only time I'd leave the house.

So that was like six months. Wow. That I kind of lived. That. Um, 

Jan: so what you're saying is that from one to eight or so is where the trauma happened. You don't have to share what the trauma is. Yeah. But you were living in Chicago. Was this in your fam within your family or, yeah. And I'm happy to 

Patti: share. Yeah.

So it was my father, I was, uh, sexually abused by my father. Oh dear. I'm so 

Jan: sorry to 

Patti: hear that. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah. So it was pretty like, you know, the things 

Jan: your mother forgot to mention. Yeah, yeah. Well, things your mother forgot to check on and do something about and protect you. I mean, that's, that's the whole key is when parents fall down on the job and they're not protecting their kids.

Then, you know, your nervous system. Uh, believe me, I've worked with many women, uh, mostly women who have had sexual abuse. Yeah. And your nervous system has changed for life, really, right? It's correct. Yeah. And it's possible to work with it. Mm-hmm. Um, through some therapeutic techniques, but I am so sorry to hear that.

Wow. Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. I can imagine. 

Jan: Then it shows up around eight or nine and all of a sudden, then it comes in like a lump in the throat. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, you know, you don't wanna eat in front. I'm wondering if he even made, created a fe, uh, what do you call, an eating disorder? 'cause Oh, absolutely it did.

So the first you didn't wanna eat in front of people. Oh my gosh. I didn't wanna eat in 

Patti: front of people. And here's the thing is that, that was the second round. So actually all of my anxiety spikes include some sort of food related something, which I sort of, in retrospect have said, oh, I bet it was, food was the, the only thing I had control over in my body for sure.

And so, because I was anorexic when I was about. Like seven or eight. And that was, uh, something that stuck in my throat Also, something actually did briefly and I stopped eating. And so that was my way of controlling. And it was just as my father had moved out, my parents got divorced. So it was sort of around the time I, I think I had like a freedom sense and so I was able to control something and so I stopped eating altogether.

And that was anxiety eating disorder. Mm-hmm. Which I hadn't, of course, at that age. Didn't recognize that, so, so that was kind of the first bout of it. And then in high school was that second bout. And then I kind of worked my way out of that thanks to basically a friend of mine and, and work I did with therapists and, and all of that.

Mm-hmm. Um, and then that kind of went away eventually. I mean, to be quite honest, while I was doing, I, I weaned myself off of. The Zoloft, which I do not recommend, you should not ever do without a doctor, but I did. But then I started doing in my early twenties psychedelics. So see, 

Jan: that's what happens. 

Patti: Yeah.

Jan: You were doing it to self-medicate, correct. Psychedelic when you were 20. 

Patti: Wow. 20, 20, 22, 23. My early twenties. And so what that did though was. It was very helpful for me and the lump went away and it never returned. Um, and it changed a lot for me. Again, don't recommend that you do that recreationally yourself, you know?

'cause I know there's a lot of research now with psilocybin and MDMA as far as helping with anxiety disorders and things like that, and it really did. It changed my life and I did it in, you know, recreationally, but I did it in and really. Kind of powerful ways with the people I was with. We would sit at home and talk and talk through really heavy things and hold space for each other, and so it actually ended up being really therapeutic for me.

I mean, don't get me wrong, we went into like, you know, forests and danced all night also, but like we also had periods where we were sort of sharing and in this space and so, mm-hmm. It really helped me. See things that I was experiencing, my fears. Well, I mean, that's 

Jan: the big thing now. So I mean, so what you're saying is you had Adderall, which is a downer, you know, that people can get, uh, addicted to, and then you went to Zoloft.

Ativan had Avan present. Ativan, I'm sorry, Ativan, not Adderall. That's for a d. D. Um. Then you went to, uh, Zoloft, which is mm-hmm. For, uh, an antidepressant that helps with anxiety. And then now that's the big thing. Now some using things like ketamine, uh, using marijuana. Mm-hmm. Because they're both legal 

Patti: mm-hmm.

Jan: Uh, through supervision. I mean, especially ketamine, right? Oh yeah. You can only be 

Patti: supervised. Yeah. 

Jan: But, but there is a lot of, uh, experimenting going on. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Uh, with the idea of. Using something like psilocybin or MDMA and mm-hmm. Some of that really helps people, uh, move their kind of ego outta the way.

Yeah. And then they can really look at what's going on and have a perspective on it rather than feeling like they're in it. Yes. Yeah. That I believe only should be done with a therapeutic agreed, uh, person who's trained because sometimes they go bad. Uh, those experiences. Right. Correct. I was very lucky that that was interesting.

Yeah, so that was, what age were you when that happened? I was in my early 

Patti: twenties and actually the very first time I did MDMA, that was exactly what you described is I had this moment and that really helped with the agoraphobia stuff is. As I remember, I thought nobody cares. And I, and I had this moment where I thought, I'm living in this world where I feel like everybody's judging me.

Everybody's thinking these things about me. Everybody's focused on me and that I'm gonna be unsafe. And I went, everybody is thinking about their own stuff and everybody's paying attention to themselves, right? And, and nobody gives, nobody cares. About me and what I'm doing. 

Jan: Right. No, it's, and that, that's, uh, that is a great thing to realize.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad that that happened. Um, I wouldn't recommend this if people are listeners here that agreed they run off or do something like that for anxiety. No. Uh, which there's, you know, different anxiety workbooks, there's therapists that work with that. Uh, there's also somatic ways of working with it probably that weren't.

Round back when you were 20. Uh, because somatic work has only come in last, I'd say maybe 20 years, where it's become very popular and really helpful. You're working with the body and the nervous system rather than just cognition. 

Patti: Yeah. And I will say too that, so, uh, you know, I had another spike, which was the last kind of big spike in, um, like 12 years ago, something like that.

And that one. I had stopped taking any drugs 'cause I also smoked marijuana a lot in my teens and my twenties. So I was self-medicating and, and when I stopped everything surprise, everything kind of came back because bring back. I wasn't actually, I, while I did some work and it really stuck with me and helped me.

I wasn't doing some root work, I wasn't doing some more of that. So that's a reason why I also agree not to do it without a plan and supervision and, and, you know, that kind of support. Um. So as soon as I stopped me self-medicating, it kind of spiked. Um, and that again was a debilitating one where that was the first time I had been real.

Okay. What age was that? Patty was, what age was that? That was 20, uh, 32. Oh sure. Roaring back with a fierce fierceness. Right? Yeah. And that was the first time I had panic attacks. Oh, interesting. Like all on panic attacks. And then I got that kind of like anticipatory anxiety. So then I was fearing panic attacks all the time.

And that for me was a weird one because I was scared to be alone. I was scared. Like I didn't like taking showers if somebody wasn't in the home. Like I had all, that's where all of like the, the, the big. Uh, like doomsday feelings, something's wrong. Something I'm gonna die. I am gonna, you know, I'm having a heart attack.

I'm having heart palpitations, or, and here was another food one. I'm malnourished. I'm gonna pass out. I'm malnourished and I eat really well. I've always eaten well. I love vegetable. Like I eat very balanced, healthy, but for some reason I'm malnourished. I'm malnourished. I'm gonna pass out. So I started eating protein bars, which did not help with weight gain, but it was what I was doing to feel in control of something.

Jan: Of course. So did you ever, in your thirties when it all came back, uh, did you go see a therapist or work really with the anxiety? Be okay? 

Patti: I saw a cognitive behavioral therapist. Mm-hmm. And that changed everything for me. Everything. Mm-hmm. Um, because I'm really, I'm a very logical person, so cognitive behavioral therapy was brilliant for me.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I did about. Seven sessions with cognitive behavioral therapist and she, you know what I really liked about that? And I learned about a book there too. And, and I have a lot of resources I wanna talk about. I'll be as well, I'll bet that I will be. Um, but this one book was called An End to Panic and that was a workbook.

And, um, I learned about it through that and that it, it's cognitive behavioral therapy in that way. Mm-hmm. And so it's really powerful because what I really enjoyed about. That process was learning the physiology of what was happening during a panic attack. Mm-hmm. And so, and it's sort of actually very difficult to pass out during a panic attack, even though you feel like you're is, 'cause you're so heightened that everything is going and it's actually very difficult for you to pass out even though you might feel like you are.

Mm-hmm. Um. And so that was something that I learned, and so understanding what was happening in my body at the moment helped me ground myself. Mm-hmm. In the middle of a panic attack. 

Jan: That's great. So that is so important. I'm just going back to, because yeah, I was teaching this over the weekend and so what happens though?

Is when people get out of their window of tolerance or some people call it capacity. Mm-hmm. And you're spinning out. Yeah. Um, if you go for long periods of time where you're spinning out and it's like the pedals down and everything's like revving, uh, you actually drop into a state of call freeze. 

Patti: Mm. So 

Jan: some people actually go down from really, really revved up, you know, hyper arousal to hypo arousal.

They go into a freeze and shut down. Yeah. So sometimes it depends what people get. Uh, but I can imagine, uh, uh, in myself, I've had, uh, one or two panic attacks and never realized really what they were until right later. Oh, that's what that was. Mm-hmm. But did you ever try EMDR or brain spotting? 

Patti: So I just recently tried EMDR for the first time, so my anxiety now is I, I, I also, eventually I tried everything, but by that point I think I, I kind of came to the realization that my brain is different now because of my trauma and stuff.

So I am on, um, Lexapro now. Mm-hmm. And I've been on that for about eight years and that really helps me, me drastically. For my anxiety. And so I am, I'm with a really phenomenal therapist right now, and so we did some EMDR, um, we did a trial of EMDR, so we did it around, um, driving because that became one of the things basically for me, the, the last bout of anxiety gave me a lot of travel anxiety as well, which I'd never, I used to travel everywhere and I loved it, and now flying is difficult.

Driving long distances alone became difficult, so we kind of put it towards doing long distance driving, which. Worked really well. And um, so that's been, that's been really great. But we did something similar to EMDR called a RT and she was recently certified in that. And we did that for a part of my abuse.

Mm-hmm. And that was pretty phenomenal. It was really fascinating. Mm-hmm. It really helped with my triggering. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, I was really, I was really stunned by how quickly it, it worked. 

Jan: People what a RT stands for? 

Patti: Ah, if I can remember, it's accelerated. 

Jan: Is it accelerated? Accelerated, accelerated resolution 

Patti: therapy?

Jan: Yes. Yes. Okay. I, I thought maybe you knew, so I didn't wanna put you in this spot. I did know, 

Patti: but I forgot. So that's helpful. Yes. Yes. Accelerated resolution therapy. Yeah. And so it's similar because my understanding is that the person who created a RT, um, was connected to, or was. Um, like worked very closely with the person who created EMDR.

Yes. So it's very similar mm-hmm. And that you use eye movement for this work. Mm-hmm. But it's much faster. Whereas EMDR you do many sessions. Yes. And, but a RT can be one or two sessions and it's, it's a little more intensive also. It's less triggering. Mm-hmm. Because you don't have to go back and picture a whole thing and live in, stay in it.

Like you, you see it. And then you're moving through it and you kind of go through it a few times and it gets fuzzy. Mm-hmm. Is kind of the best way to kind of, like, I explain it as sort of like you, you picture a scene of what was happening. And then as you do the, the therapy for me, it was almost like somebody walked in front of the scene with like frosted glass.

Hmm. So it becomes like, I can't quite, like, I, I know it's there, I know what's happened. I don't get triggered when I, when things would come up as they have previously. And I can't quite see it fully. So I can't sit and visualize the abuse because I remember because it happened. So frequently for so long it's very easy for me to see it or you know.

Mm-hmm. And so. It really helped with all of that, so I can't picture it as easily. It's very fascinating, um, how it works. 

Jan: Yes, it's, and so, I mean, these are other ways that the field has advanced in psychotherapy, which is, and also brain spotting has come off of a m uh, EMDR 

Patti: and 

Jan: I was trained in EMDR and I didn't really.

Uh, find it useful in my practice. I of course do what I do. Right. And, um, there's also, uh, practitioners doing creative things with all of these methodologies, which really helps people. So now, now you're working more in the body. You're not just in somebody's head cognitively, so, right. So for people who feel like they were doing it cognitively and it wasn't working, there's so much more.

And I'll tell you what I've done. Yeah, for my, uh, anxiety and, uh, panic attack that I had, and it really did the same thing to me, Patty, where I used to be a flight attendant and I couldn't get on a plane. Uh, because in fact, even coming home from Nashville, I always have to the guy that's five of the window, I always have to say, can you please open your shade?

Mm-hmm. Because I need to see what's going on. I can't just be in the capsule. Taking off somewhere and not knowing what's ha, I can't, like, I feel so outta control. And I've noticed that's really gone down for me. And, um, it's called biodynamic, cranial sacral work. Hmm. Okay. Now that is more totally body-based and you lay on a table and you have to have a practitioner and they work with the cranium, cranial sacrum, the sacrum, basically your, your, um.

Your vertebrae, which is where the vagus nerve goes through. Yeah. That connects in your brain and your nervous system and they work with all rebalancing the energy that has gotten out of. Out of whack, whatever you wanna call it, ah, in the, from all the trauma and the anxiety. And they balance the fluids that really actually from the cranium go all the way to the sacrum and they follow the vertebrae.

Uh, and that's, that's our main area of where everything starts happening. 'cause it keys the body, keys into the brain. So I've been going to this woman, uh, for the last three or four months. And it's made it so much easier for me to get on a plane and not, oh, I see what's happening. And I just kind of relaxed before I'd be like going, oh my gosh, I don't know if I can immune.

Yeah. And that's crazy, you know? And I know that feeling. Yeah. Where everything, even getting in the car like, can I drive the car? You know? Yeah. And that overwhelming feeling. And she balanced out a lot of that. Uh, and that really made a big difference for me and I'm still continuing that kind of work.

Yeah. But I think this whole idea, what we're talking about is that anxiety is real. It's real. And for all of us that had it early, uh, like me too. I'm more sympathetic, sympathetic, dominant. Yeah. So I'm all charged up because it was, um, when I was like four and a half and five years old. Yeah. And so that sticks with me, and that's kind of who I am now today.

Right. And can do things like take some antidepressant and take, uh, some of these other drugs. But I, I highly recommend doing more of the, the newer age, uh, yeah. Has come out. Mm-hmm. Which is like what you're talking about. A RT. Right. Or EDR or brainspotting. Or biodynamic. Craniosacral or somatic Experiencing work.

Yeah. So much more is out there for people. Yeah. So much. Which we don't have to be drugged. You don't have to be taking, uh, yeah. What was the drug you took? Not Adderall. I keep calling it Adderall Ativan. Ativan. Yeah. You don't have to be taking Ativan and downers just because you can't get your nervous system to, to settle.

Yeah. Go do something more creative and something different. That works I think just as well. So, 

Patti: yeah. Or better. I agree. And I think what's, what was really interesting when I learned about a RT and sort of EMDR and, and you can correct me if I'm wrong with this, but what my therapist's. Explained was that this is another thing that happens when you experience trauma when you're young, your brain, because you're always in fight or flight, your brain doesn't actually ever, or in a lot of cases, your brain never really fully goes into REM sleep when you go to sleep.

And so doing EMDR and a RT, it mimics. Being in REM sleeps, which allows you to then process some of this trauma because that's where you process a lot of things in your body and in your experiences in REM sleep. And if you never fully, which makes sense, right? If you're always alert, you're always, you're so, you're, you're always aware.

Yes. Then it's hard to fully get deep. 

Jan: Pure sleep. And so sleep for your body to finally drop and let go. Yeah, because it's still high hypervigilant. Yeah. But it is correct. And in any, whether it's a RT or it's somatic experiencing by Peter Levine, or whether it's, um, EMDR, uh, any of those are about, so the nervous system, uh, which is, thank God it's an autonomic nervous system, it goes.

We don't, it runs our hearts, our breathing, everything. Yeah. And when there's a threat response. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. 

Jan: So sexually abused when you're young or what happened to me mm-hmm. Is when the threat response, you wanna fight or flight. And if you can't fight it and you can't get out of there and you can't tell 'em no.

And that's not happening. What happens is you go to freeze. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: That's the logical place and that's where it gets stuck in the body. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And that's what manifests in the body. So whether it's, you know, a RT or it's EMDR or it's somatic experiencing what you're trying to do is complete what was never able to be completed.

Right. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. 

Patti: Exactly. You're processing that stuff and, and it, and I think what's important too, that I wanna touch on and, and I wanna ask you Jan too, kind of about some of your anxiety experience is that. Anxiety, like you said, it's real. And symptoms are different for everybody.

Symptoms are different. Like symptoms for me were different. Every time I had spikes, sometimes it was again the lump in my throat, but I don't get that now. I never had that again. But then I had heart palpitations. Yeah. Then I had heart palpitations. Or then I'd have fear of, you know, things that are, it's irrational.

Um, different things trigger it. And so I think it's important to remember that. It's different and it's gonna look different for everybody, but it still is anxiety and there's different forms of it. OCD is a form of A-P-T-S-D. Um, you know, there's all sorts of things that fall under anxiety disorder. I am, I am, I have a generalized anxiety disorder, general and anxiety, um, but agoraphobia, all those things.

And so I think you, Jan had mentioned that you struggled with OCD at some point. I did. And that is also an anxiety disorder. Mm-hmm. 

Jan: Right. Yeah, because mine, and, uh, I guess for, I talk about this in my book is, uh, it's in the back cover. I guess I really just wanted to put it out there. Uh, yeah. My mother was very, very depressed and suicidal and I ran in, I found her a couple times when she had overdose.

And I was like four and a half years old. Yeah. And then, um, my father was taking care of us because she went into a psych hospital and back then you went to a psych hospital for six months, not like, you know, for a week or four, uh, four weeks. Yeah. And then my father got in this horrible accident when my brother and I were in the car.

And he almost ended up dying. And so for about a year I was basically, uh, without parents, uh, because of what was happening to them. And my anxiety was off the charts, but I didn't know it. I think I went into more of A-A-P-T-S-D freeze. And back then, this is a long, we're talking. I'm going to tell everybody my age, we're talking 65 years ago that something like that happened to me.

Yeah. And they didn't know what PTSD was. Right. They didn't understand what exactly had happened to me, and I had a hard time. When I got to school, I couldn't read. I was really dissociated. I couldn't hear what people are saying to me. I had a speech impediment. I mean, I was like gone. And so they sent me to a psychiatrist and they didn't gimme any drugs or anything, but I was a mess for quite some time.

Yeah. And so how it manifested is right at OCD and they diagnosed me because I was so anxious and I would. Make a list every night and have my parents sit with me and go through it. Am I gonna die because I did this? Am I gonna die? 'cause I touched my finger to my mouth. Am I gonna die because I ate this?

And am I gonna die because, um, you know, I got a bug on me and it's, it's, you know, all these crazy things. And they would go through every night saying, no, you'll be okay. No, you'll be okay. And I never realized, you know, then when, once I got to be in eighth grade, it was kind of like I, I became more. You know, sociable and really out there with friends.

Yeah. But you know, it, it, it reared its ugly head when I got to be an adult. And that's what people don't realize is that the history, even though we don't wanna go back there, it does help us understand what's happening in the present. Mm-hmm. And then you know how to deal with it. And with the way psychology, like I said, psychotherapy has increased.

And gotten so much more sophisticated and different ways of treating. I mean, uh, really that's what's so exciting in the field in the last 20 years that there's a lot of hope for people with anxiety like you and all the work you've done. Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. And it's super fascinating because the more that you do it, and I think so much of anxiety also, like I mentioned, like that anticipatory anxiety.

Really played a big role for me in that most recent bout, which I still deal with parts of that that didn't fully go away. And so my new normal, you know, is a little higher in certain ways and, and, but there are things I continue to work on and, and it will get better. I recognize that I'll always have anxiety that's just as a part of who I am and a part of my life.

And, you know, getting to a point where I can be like, oh, I'm feeling anxious. That's okay. Yes. And that changed things for me too. Like that was a mantra for me when I finally kind of came to terms with it was like, it's not gonna kill me. It sucks. It's an uncomfortable feeling and it's not gonna kill me.

I am not going to die from anxiety. And so to be able to sit there in it and say. Oh, I'm feeling anxious right now. That's okay. And breathe and like, be aware. And I think the more awareness we have of ourselves, the more we're able to see some of those things and we're, we're able to start challenging them.

So for me, some of those things are like, I have little bits of OCD as well, like I have to check my door a certain way every single night. And if I don't, I feel like my skin is gonna crawl, like I'm crawling in my skin. Mm-hmm. So I have to go back and check the door in the exact same way. And, you know.

It's not the end of the world. I just sort of, for now I'm allowing that to be what it is. There's other things that I have done that I'm like, okay, that maybe is a little too much and I can maybe let's, let's oil that door because I didn't wanna have the door squeaked a little bit. And I want the door to squeak because if somebody comes in my room, then I hear that like, these are some of my anxiety things that then I work and I'm like, that I don't need to do.

Let's oil the door. Let's come up with a way to process those feelings and, and sleep comfortably. 

Jan: The key, what you're saying, Patty, and this is actually what we teach, um, when we're training, uh, is this whole thing of mindfulness. Yeah. Is observing yourself with just with no judgment. Yes. That's the key.

Yeah, this is John Kat Zinn's work actually. And John Kat Zim has written quite a few books, but he's like one of the fathers of mindfulness. Yeah. Is observing yourself without judgment in the moment and just being curious about what's going on, rather than judging you like, oh, there it is again. Mm-hmm.

And once you can start doing that and go, oh, I see I'm starting to have anxiety, or I'm having a panic attack. And so then the key is an E. An EMDR does this. I don't know if a RT, I don't know a RT 'cause I haven't been training that. Yeah. But being able to find what we call resources, right? Some place that I can go in my body that I can self touch.

Or calm myself down or do mind's eye imagery, like walking in the, in the, the woods or the mountains or sitting on a beach someplace that brings us into more coherence and makes us relax so we're not like so uptight. Yeah. So that, that becomes what? Just to have, have to do that as a practice every day for certain people.

Mm-hmm. And I think it's a good one. 

Patti: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and I love that reminder of not judging yourself or your process with it, because I think that that's really important is that for, for a long time it was, I get frustrated, oh, I'm back feeling this. And it's like, like I lose or something. Like I can't, I'm not, can't beat it.

And changing that. That relationship with it. I also try to not say my anxiety. I try to just, I don't wanna, you know, own it. I wanna say it's anxiety. I'm experiencing anxiety and that helps me. So sometimes how I talk about it helps. Um, but yeah, just being compassionate with yourself too, because my goodness.

What have you experienced that led you to that? And how amazing is it that you can be aware of that and, and do things and, and that, I think talking about resources, just like anxiety looks different in its symptoms for everybody. So does therapy and relief from that. It's been different for me every time I've done it and there's so many resources of different kinds and I think.

It do what works for one person, doesn't work for somebody else and the anxiety they're dealing with, so, right. Keep trying different things, you know, meditation is one for me too. Yeah. I'm, I, I work best with visualized meditation. I struggle a bit. Yes. With just the silence. So I need visualization or I use Headspace for a while, which is an app and that really helped me because that's counting breath.

And it's something that I'm able to come back to, to count breaths and, yes. Um, so there's something, there's quite a few apps that you can get 

Jan: tons besides Headspace. I know. I, I've had them, but they're, they're so, like I said, today, it's become so normal for people to really, and which is exciting. Yeah.

Before, back in the day. When I went to that psychiatrist, all my friends, where are you going? And I would be so shame, embarrassed to be able to say where I was. 'cause I was defective, right? Something was wrong with me. And thank God that if whatever you believe in is that today, um, it's, it doesn't have the pathologizing, uh, as pathologizing as it used to.

Yeah. For people saying, I go to my therapist. Right? People don't choose you from that. They kind of go, oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Whatcha working? Or Good for you community. Like, yeah. Or Good for you, I should do that too. You know, something like that. Yeah, yeah, 

Patti: yeah. Absolutely. So I think some of the resources, um. You know, that I've used over the years.

So again, meditation for me, um, varying kinds have been helpful. Again, I can't say enough for, especially people who are logical. Um, cognitive behavioral therapy, I just love it. Mm-hmm. I'm doing something now called cognitive processing therapy, which is a little bit different. I'm in the middle of learning that, so I don't know.

Too much about, about it. I'm just starting it. But again, it's logic based and that's really helpful. Anything cognitive is really useful for me. Um, obviously don't be afraid of, of medication when it makes sense. Yes, I'm a big proponent of trying some things first, um, but sometimes. Your chemicals are actually out of balance and you need them.

And for me, and one day I hope to not be on Lexapro and you know, and that might happen. Um, exactly. But I mean you're, it's you're 

Jan: retraining in some ways. Yeah. And energetically trying to, I mean, what we say is that you're trying to kind. Discharge or get rid of all that energy that you've been carrying around, right.

For all these years. And as the nervous system starts to, um, I guess you could say heal, uh, it, it has, you may be able to get off the drugs if you're taking them. But you should definitely talk to your prescribing doctor. Uh, don't just do it yourself. Uh, 'cause that's really dangerous. Dangerous and 

Patti: yeah.

Jan: Right. And I'm looking forward to, uh, our guest that we have and she is a psychiatric nurse practitioner who knows everything about drugs and, um, we'll be hearing from her at some point. But, you know, there's so many. Options for people with anxiety. Like, yeah, you, I'm just so sorry to hear that about what happened to you and I, you know, that's been, you know, your journey is, yeah, having to work with that, that was what you got for the first eight or nine years, and then the rest of your life is the unfolding of how to heal that, so, 

Patti: yeah.

Yeah. And it's 

Jan: the. 

Patti: It's a part of it, right? It's a part of my, exactly right. It's a part of my story. It's not who I am, but it's a part of it and Right as people say. Like, I wouldn't be me without all of that. And it's, you know, being in therapy since I was eight or nine sure has helped me a lot. I mean, I wouldn't be doing this if I hadn't had all of that, you know?

And I know. Um, 

Jan: yeah. So, you know what else I was thinking? I know we're just, we're recording this, but it's been, it's been a gift, uh, working with you and, uh, the fact that we came together. Yeah. Like who would ever think someone here up in Boston would get together with some down in Texas and, you know, we're like 30 years apart.

Yeah. And that's, that to me is, you know, that's, uh, a gift right there. That's very, yeah. Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. Um, I love it. I'm so grateful too. And, and yeah, I learned so much from this and, and, um, but yeah, I think when it comes to anxiety, just be gentle with yourself. And, you know, sometimes for me, just playing Sudoku, that's something for me that really like, because it gets me out of it.

Get out of that space and, and out of the, the cycle, you know, and that really helps. Mm-hmm. But there's lots out there. And, and don't be embarrassed and don't be afraid. And the number, also, the, the last thing I'll say on it is that what I've learned, because I was always really open about it when I started having panic attacks, I went to my community on Facebook and was like, what are y'all doing for this?

Because I'm a hot mess over here and I'm really struggling. And the number of people that contacted me that I would've never imagined. 

Jan: Yeah, 

Patti: struggle with anxiety, struggle with panic attacks. It's enormous. Um, and I mean the same, like you think about the number of women who have had sexual assault of some sort.

You think about the people, most everybody you know, has had some sort of childhood trauma. Um, so many people have anxiety and so it, it's, it's not. Is isolating. It doesn't have to be as isolating as it feels. Um, and more people understand. So, um, yeah. Yeah. 

Jan: And I just have to put throw in one is that trauma doesn't have to look like sex sexual abuse.

Correct. Or like what happened to me. Yes. Trauma. Some people say, oh, I never had trauma, so that doesn't ha I don't know what's going on. Why am I so anxious? Mm-hmm. Well, it can come with pervasive neglect too. Mm-hmm. And neglect is, uh, actually very abusive at which people don't know. Yes. But that causes a lot of anxiety 'cause you're basically forgotten in a family system and you're having to do everything yourself.

Yeah. And that causes a lot of anxiety. So, yeah. 

Patti: The other thing too is, you know, over the years, because I had such kind of this intense trauma, um, and when I share it with people, I, I kind of sometimes get responses like, oh, well, I mean, what I, I didn't have anything as bad as what you had or anything. Yes.

And it's like, I think the important thing to remember is the worst thing that ever happened to you is the worst thing that ever happened to you. And so it doesn't have to be as, whatever as the worst thing that happened to me, like. It is still trauma, it is still bad. It is still challenging, you know, and I think when you look at it from that perspective, it, it's all subjective.

Mm-hmm. And to, there's no scale here. There's no comparison. Um, your life is, your life and your experiences are as challenging as they are, and nothing can take away from that. And so I think, you know, that kindness and love to yourself is really helpful through that. 

Jan: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Patti: All right. Well next time we get to talk to somebody who has even more knowledge on this topic.

Yes. Which I'm very excited about. Yeah. As well. So, 

Jan: yeah. Well, thanks. Well, thank you for, uh, sharing your story and, uh. I so enjoy these times and like I said, it, it is, uh, synchronistic that we came together and whatever that is, uh, I've really appreciate it. So yeah, me too. So thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends. Subscribe 

Patti: and leave a review. And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional. 

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest.

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. You can find links to both of those over at our website at things my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes. Thank you.