Why Every Woman Needs to Get That Mammogram with Laura Williams

This week, we’re getting real about something that hits close to home.

We’re joined by Jan’s dear friend and fellow therapist Laura Williams, who bravely shares her journey through an unexpected breast cancer diagnosis. Stage zero—no symptoms, no lump, no family history. Just one routine mammogram that saved her life.

In this episode, we talk about:

• How a mammogram caught Laura’s cancer before it spread
• What “stage zero” breast cancer really means
• The wild (and frustrating) realities of navigating treatment
• Radiation, Tamoxifen, and the side effects no one warns you about
• The emotional toll of playing it “fine” while quietly falling apart
• How women are often told to suck it up—even during cancer
• The support systems that carried her, and the ones that surprised her

This is a must-listen for any woman who’s ever put off her appointment or felt dismissed in a medical setting. Let this be your nudge, your hug, and your reminder: you matter, and your health does too.

Go get that mammogram. We mean it.

About Laura:

Laura Williams has known since her early twenties that she was called to this work — but the path to Be Found Counseling has been anything but linear. Three children, three moves, loss and birth, other careers, and her own healing journey have all shaped how she shows up as a counselor today. She looks back and can see that none of it was wasted. Every detour has deepened her belief in the power of mercy, grace, and community.

Being a counselor isn’t just what Laura does — it’s who she is. Every day, she gets to witness hope, healing, and redemption unfold in real time. It’s an honor for her to walk with people as they discover their own worth and learn to live from a place of belonging rather than shame.

While Laura’s faith deeply informs the way she sees the world, she doesn’t practice biblical counseling or label herself a Christian counselor. What guides her is how Jesus lived — bringing people out of shame into dignity, meeting them with compassion and understanding. Whether or not faith is part of someone’s story, her hope is that when they sit together, they experience unconditional love, mercy, and grace.

Laura’s work is shaped by her training with the Healing Our Core Issues Institute (HOCI), where she now serves as a member of the core faculty. The HOCI model focuses on human worth, healthy boundaries, creating meaning out of imperfection, taking responsibility for needs and desires, and cultivating joy and secure connection — both with ourselves and others.

She often says this work offers hope in the wilderness. When life feels overwhelming, lonely, or uncertain, it gives us a place to land — and a foundation we can return to again and again. After experiencing this transformation herself, Laura no longer fears the wilderness. She’s ready to step into it with you.

Laura’s Links:

Website: www.befoundcounseling.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/befoundcounseling 

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

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Stay updated on new episodes here.

*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Patti: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, the podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author, turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body aging and all the. Wait, what 

Patti: moments of womanhood and I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me? 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two, outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, 

and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning to mental health perimenopause.

And scalp cancer. Yes. 

Patti: Really nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. Hey Jan. Hey Patty. Good to see you again. Good to see you. How are you? Ah, I am feeling a little more relief now that my book is publishing up on Amazon. Uh, it was, it was quite a week for me, but, uh, yay.

Woo hoo. 

Patti: My, uh, my, uh, my copy has just arrived. It's in my parcel locker, so I have to go grab it today. Today. I'm very excited. Thank you. Well, because I realized I had never read your book. I actually had started listening to the audio version of the first one. And I don't know what happened because I was interested, so I'm not sure what occurred, but I didn't finish it.

Well, thank you. Um, but I got very excited to read the new one. Um, and, and you gotta 

Jan: download the forms too 'cause those are, are clutch, you know. Yeah. They make the whole book. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So, well today we're doing a little follow up on, uh, what we had done talking about, uh, cancer, skin cancer, which I've had a battle with for.

Gee, ever since probably the last 20 years, it started showing up. Yeah. 'cause of all the torture, torturing I did in myself when I was young and never used sunscreen or I don't think they had sunscreen. And today we've got one of my colleagues, a really good friend, and, uh, Laura Williams. And let me tell you just a little bit about Laura.

Laura has known since her early twenties. That she was called to this work, and that's her counseling practice through the path to be found. Counseling has been anything but linear. Three children, multiple moves. Seasons of loss and growth and her own healing journey have shaped the compassionate and grounded ways she now practices.

As the counselor, Laura finds deep meaning in witnessing hope, healing, and redemption unfold in real time. She hopes every person she meets, experiences, dignity, understanding, and unconditional care. Laura serves as core faculty with healing our core issues Institute, where she teaches the model centered on human worth, healthy boundaries, and secure connection.

She often says her work offers hope in the wilderness, walking with clients as they find belonging and restoration in the midst of life's hardest seasons. So very nice, and I would love to welcome Laura to our podcast. 

Laura: Hello. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, we're excited to have you. Yes, and all this talk about your book, mine should be here today.

Yay. I'm so excited. Yeah. 

Jan: Well, thank you. And, um, I'm just, I'm touched that you would even come on our podcast and talk about, to me a very vulnerable thing, uh, that you've been through in the last. Has it been a year? It about a year. Yep. About a year. Just over a year? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And um, before when we were just chatting and before we started this, we were talking about, you know, things your mother forgot to mention and you said your mom was still alive.

And how was she with all of this journey you went through with breast cancer? 

Laura: Yeah, it was interesting. Um, you know, I mean, I think. Um, I think every mother probably never, ever wants to experience the death of a child, right? Mm-hmm. You know, I don't think that ever. You never wanna have to even entertain that.

And so I think, um, in many ways that was really the primary, um, feeling she had around that, which was interesting because it was, uh, actually a very connecting thing for us. Oh, nice. Um, yeah, so it was very interesting. Um, I think it was very hard because as we kind of talked through, cancer does not run in my family.

Um, and so, um, I mean, colon cancer and lung cancer, but that's because my grandparents were horrible about their health. Yeah. Um, but you know, other than that. I don't have cancer in my family. So 

Jan: when your grandparents had, um, are these your paternal or fraternal, um, grandparents? Both. 

Laura: Well, my, my paternal grandmother lived to be, oh my gosh, almost 90.

Wow. And, um, she actually, the worst thing she had was kind of similar to what you were all talking about last week. She had, she did have melanoma. Mm-hmm. Which she didn't end up dying from, but. That was her only cancer and, and again, staying in the sun all the time. Yeah. You know. No, no sunscreen, nothing.

Um, so how did 

Jan: your grandparents then talk about cancer? Or how was it handed down to you as it growing up, which probably didn't get handed 

Laura: down? No. No, I mean, in my family we kind of avoided most topics. You know, anything that was, sorry, I don't mean to laugh. I know, but you know how it's, we didn't really talk about anything.

Right, exactly. Um, listen, the three of us know how this works. Um. We avoided all topics that were hard, you know? Mm-hmm. Or we prayed about it, you know? Mm-hmm. And so it, there wasn't really a whole lot of education around illness or disease or, um, cancer. I mean, I knew that my grandparents had cancer. I mean, I was in my twenties when they did, but, um, I didn't really know what that meant, you know?

Right. Or even what it meant for me. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, at that point. I didn't know. Okay, well if your grandparent dies from colon cancer, that might mean something for you or Right, right. Any of those things. Yeah. 

Jan: They probably didn't even know that way back then. You know? No genetics and all that.

Laura: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing for this is, you know, I did all of the testing, all of the genetic testing and everything else, and I have no genes that would even indicate that this would be something that would pop up for me. So, um, in fact, all of my markers are very clear. Like, I don't 

Patti: shock.

I know, yeah. This was just a shock to you. So do you mind talking a little bit about sort of the, the journey of it and how you got to the point and, uh, if it was a lump or like what that looked like for you? 

Laura: Yeah. Well, you know, this sounds like a kind of a scary thing, but really there was nothing, there was no lump, there was no indication that anything was.

It's wrong. Um, I was just going in for my routine mammogram and I, you know, this is my plug for every woman needs to get their mammograms every single year. Yeah. Because, um, my medical oncologist looked at me one day and she goes, you are literally the poster child for why we do mammograms, because 

Jan: Wow, wow.

Laura: At my stage, that's 98% curable. People don't do what they're supposed to do. And so they don't catch it until it's stage one, stage two, stage three. And by that time it's just much more difficult to manage. Um, and I can give an analogy of that, that my doctor gave me, but um, but really it was just a routine mammogram.

And I got a thing in the mail that said it was abnormal. And I thought, well, that's weird. And so then went back and then, um. That's when I really started feeling the shift in the radiologists. Like, wow. They took the pictures and then they brought me back to the office and they're like, Hey, you know, we don't really like what this looks like.

And, um, you know, I mean, they start throwing out numbers and you know, we're 50% sure this is. Probably something we need to worry about and unless I'm 80% sure that it's not, you know, like they start throwing numbers at you and you're just like, I mean, my question is like, am I dying? You know what I mean?

Yeah, 

Jan: right. Yeah. 

Laura: I had no answers at that point. Right. Um. I had no idea of what stage it's at. What, what's going on. They didn't 

Jan: tell you that? They didn't say they didn't 

Laura: know. 

Jan: Oh, 

Laura: they don't know. And so, you know, 'cause they're going on just the image. 

Jan: Yeah. Right. 

Laura: And so they didn't know what was going on.

And, um, other than this is suspicious, we don't like this. So luckily I had been through something similar, not breast cancer, but something similar about 15 years ago. And I had already had a surgeon at this point. Mm-hmm. And so I just called up my surgeon and I was like, Hey, I got some, you know, weird stuff going on.

He gets me in right away and he takes one look at it and he says the same thing, I don't like this. 

Jan: Mm. 

Laura: He's like, we need, we need, we need to do something with this. Um, and so, you know, it just was very unnerving and shocking and like. I can't believe this is happening. I'm 48 years old. Like, what is going on?

You know? Right, right. So, you know, so then it starts this whole process. Didn't 

Jan: it take you a long time to get into Yes. Because I remember being around you and getting that news and then, you know, here it happens. You go into shock. Yes. And you, and you're thinking, is this the fourth stage? Is this the end?

You know, you're, and I think you had to wait how long before you had Oh yeah. 

Laura: I had to wait, I mean from, from the mammogram to the diagnosis was two months. Wow. Yeah, it was a long time. And you know, they kept telling me. Um, you know, it's contained, it's okay, we, you know, but we just wanna be sure blah, blah, blah.

And I'm sitting there thinking every minute you do this, like every minute is another moment where it could move or it could spread. So I felt like everything I did, I was like, oh my god. You know, I literally have like moving your arms or thinking Yes. Is it Right, exactly. Yes. Is it moving around like massage?

I didn't get massage anymore. I was like, you know, trying hard to figure out, like, how do I. How do I figure this out? 

Jan: Right. 

Laura: Um, how do you, how do you function in that 

Patti: like Right. For two months to sit there and, and I mean, it's so interesting because I like would imagine when you think about cancer, when you.

Think about how dangerous it is. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. For 

Patti: me, I would always imagine it as like, oh, we go now, like we get you in as soon as possible and we try to figure this out because of that exact reason. But for it to like the reality of it, to take as long as it did. Right. Terrifying. What a like, and you're trying to function as a human in the world while you're not sure.

Right about what's 

Laura: going on inside of your body, right? Because at the same time, you know, I mean, you all know this, when you work for yourself, no one's paying your paycheck, right? And so there's no time, you know, like all I'm thinking is, okay, well I'm gonna have medical bills out the wazoo, right? So. I'm gonna have to work because now I'm gonna have to figure out how to pay for all this, how to, right?

And so like, your brain starts going a million miles a minute. And it's not just, do I have cancer? Am I dying? It's okay. Well how, how do I like afford cancer? How do I, you know what I mean? Like, there's so many crazy thoughts that start coming through you, plus, 

Jan: let alone you seeing clients, right? Yeah. And you, you're trying to focus on your client.

And you're, you have to be compartmentalizing or something. Yes. Just to be in those two months that you're like, oh my gosh, I can't think about this right now. Right, 

Laura: right. Which I always say those unhealthy patterns come in handy sometimes. Right. Yeah. 

Jan: Dissociating, you know, any of those. Yes. You know, compartmentalizing, those are helpful sometimes.

Yes. Sometimes in gene reality television, 

Patti: whatever. You need to do television. I know. 

Jan: Serial watching 

Laura: TV shows. Right. Exactly. Um, yeah, I mean, detaching just a wee bit as Ashley and I say my best friend. Mm-hmm. You're like just a wee bit detached right now, but that's okay. We'll come back, you know? Yeah. But it just was really overwhelming and, um.

You know, for a long time just didn't really have a whole lot of, and did you tell 

Jan: your, your, um, uh, your family or did you kinda keep that from them? I mean, your, you have three sons, right? 

Laura: Yes. Um, at that point. I mean, yeah, I had to say something because I was going back and forth to the hospital all the time.

'cause I had, I mean, not only was the, just the, the hard part about it was like my doctor's very thorough, which I'm thankful for. Um, but there were so many biopsies and then I had to have an MRI and then MRI found more spots and I had to have more biopsies. And so it was like this huge process. And so by the time I was like, I was going back and forth to the hospital.

And, um, we have this, you know, awesome tracking on our phones now, you know, so sometimes my son will pull up like, you know, where is everybody? And. I didn't want him seeing like, where's, where's mom's at the hospital? What's going with that? Yeah, right, exactly. So I gave them, you know, the kind of bird's eye view of what, what this is.

And, um, you know, that we're, we're trying to figure it out and it's gonna be okay, but, you know, here's, here's what it is. And, um. That was hard though, because I didn't really have a whole lot of answers. You didn't 

Jan: have any answers yourself, and you're trying to make everybody feel, um, secure or safe. Yeah, and, and you're like, not yourself.

I mean, just Right. Wondering yourself. Wow. Right. Right. Yeah. And so I, I'm curious, so did they have, when you say biopsy, did they actually go in and surgically cut in and to biopsys and it's like a margin, see what they're taking out? Is that, is that what it was? Yeah. Oh my gosh, Laura, it, 

Laura: it's, it's actually like, I hate to, I mean, I feel like some of this makes people not wanna go get mammograms because you're like, oh, but these biopsies are really barbaric.

I mean, honestly, sometimes I think, what are we doing to women? You know, there's got to be a better way to figure this out. 

Jan: Right. 

Laura: Um, but there's, you know, you're, you're in these different contraptions and they're putting needles and, and you know, like trying to get tissue samples and, you know, I was, my procedure, which Ashley actually took me to, um, was supposed to be a 30 minute procedure and it took three hours.

Oh wow. 

Jan: Goodness. Three hours. 

Laura: Wow. 

Jan: Um, what did, was this the final where they took out No, this was still biopsy, 

Laura: it was biopsy number one. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it's because of the location of it. My, it was, the location of, it was very close to my chest wall. And so, you know, not only is it stressful to be in there right, but them laying down and they've got this contraption and you're got, you know.

Different things, prodding and poking everywhere, and you're numb, but it's, you're still knowing what's happening and you hear people talking and they're like, well, if we can't get close to the chest wall, we can't do this, and we've got to get this. And I'm like, oh my God. Oh my goodness. Like what is happening?

What is happening? And all the wow. Poor Ashley's waiting out in the lobby like. Thinking it 30 minutes. Yeah. Right. And three hours later I'm still back there. And you know, it was just, it was just kind of like it, it was just very overwhelming in the moment of, um, must have thrown you into all different kinds 

Jan: of trauma, I would imagine.

Laura: Oh yeah. I mean, there was just so much anxiety and. You know, just having to go through the procedures of it is almost worse than the diagnosis, like the procedures of everything, you know, and the time and the energy and the anxiety, everything. I'm like, yeah, it just was so much. 

Jan: Yeah. So when they finally then did diagnose it mm-hmm.

After two months, what was the treatment? 

Laura: So what they decided, so luckily with mine, um, they call it stage zero. And in fact, this is kind of like a, an odd thing, um, which I hope this does not happen because it will actually limit women in their ability to get healthcare around this, because it's called stage zero.

And this is where my analogy came in handy. Good old male doctor with his analogies. Um, he said, you know, like you have the pipes in your basement, and he said, in your basement you got all these pipes and there's stuff in there, right? And you know it's in there. And eventually it might burst. Okay. And so that's what I was having.

So I have cancer cells in my, in my ducts. Mm-hmm. So it's called ductal carcinoma. In situ you. Okay. Which means that it's cancer, but it's still in the pipes of your breasts. Right. And they don't know when or if it will burst. Oh wow. And once it burst the glands, 

Jan: what do they call them? They have to, what do 

Laura: they call?

They're your, they're your ducks. The ducks. So your ducks and your breasts. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you know, you're, some, a lot of people are walking around with it, but just not the amount that it would cause a mammogram to pull it up. So mine was enough that. The pipes were pretty clogged. Does that make sense?

Yes. And so, 

Patti: so it's like, when you say burst, it's like that would make a tumor an actual, like is that kind of 

Laura: what you mean? Kind of What happens is when it goes from that to bursting mm-hmm. It's called invasive breast cancer at that point. Ah. Oh, got it. Okay. So, and that's where it starts. Stage one, stage two, stage three.

Got it. So, you know, and, and this is where I'm learning so much through this process. Yeah. And so what my doctor told me is they're actually trying to make what's called so ductal carcinoma in situ two, which is DCIS. If you, if you look it up, you'll find it. Um, but most women don't know about it until the diagnosed with it.

Um. It's, uh, some doctors will say it's pre-cancer. It is not. It's there's, it's cancer. Um, but what they're trying to do is get it to not be cancer, which means that if a woman has it, they no longer have the right to radiation. They no longer can get a mastectomy. They can't. Yeah. 

Patti: Right, right. So of course, yeah.

Laura: Why would we want to, you know, why would we want women to have choices? Yeah, no. When she could, like literally, I mean, this is, again, once it's stage one, it drastically reduces, 

Jan: right? 

Laura: So like at this point, I had so many choices to prevent me from actually going to stage one. 

Jan: Right? But if 

Laura: they remove it as a cancer diagnosis.

It removes those choices too. Right. So it's very frustrating. 

Jan: Yeah. Well, so you, so basically yours didn't burst, your pipes didn't burst, right? Yep. My pipes didn't burst. They got the pipe, the pipes before that were filled with cancer. Yep. Uh, that was going to eventually burst. I see. Yeah. And that's zero.

That's called 

Laura: zero. Yep, exactly. And they don't really have a name for it other than DCIS, which is what they call it. Um, but most of, most of the, you know, like WebMD and Mayo Clinic, they call it stage zero cancer. 

Jan: Hmm. 

Laura: Um, and you know, it's, it's funny when you're talking to different people, I mean, my surgeon was very clear.

He is, 'cause I think he thought. If I tell her it's cancer, she thinks she's dying. Right? Right. He kept saying, this is, we're okay. We're okay, we're okay. This isn't cancer. And everyone around me, nurses, mammogram people, everybody else was like, I'm so sorry about your cancer diagnosis. 

Patti: Hmm. Interesting. 

Laura: Yeah, so it's just, you know, again, talk about confusing.

It's just like, yeah, yeah. You know? 

Patti: Well, I think it's interesting, right? Because it's, and that's why I think this conversation's really important because. There's so much about all of that that so many people don't know. Right? I mean, that we're sitting here learning what that means. Mm-hmm. And so that difference between your cancer diagnosis and it being scary, it's always scary, but what stages it's at and, and all of that.

I mean, I think it's really important for people to understand all of that and the different types of cancer and the different stages of that. 

Laura: Yeah. Which is, you know, I mean, it is scary because regardless of whatever stage it is, you're still going through the same things, right? Like you're still getting the biopsies, you're still, you know, going through surgery, you're still having options for mastectomy or non mastectomy, you know, so there's still a lot of decisions.

It's just you don't have like. At stage two or stage three, there's not the huge gap between 98%. We think this is gonna be okay. And ooh, now we're sitting at 70%. Mm-hmm. Right, right. You know, 

Patti: and there's always the, the chance that it moves faster. Oh, and like grows. I mean, so even though it's not there yet at stage zero, there's still a chance at any moment for it to move.

So it is still absolutely terrifying. 

Laura: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and then, you know, just even, um, just from a education standpoint, you know, once you have that, I mean, I've done all the research, now your odds go way up. 

Jan: Yeah. 

Laura: And it's, I mean, it's not like I have a 70% chance, but man, if I had a, you know, 2% chance of having cancer, now it's like 20.

Right. You know, so it's, it's a big jump for it 

Jan: to come backward to be on the other side or, or just some area. Yeah. I see. Yeah. To come 

Laura: back or any of those things. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Laura: So 

Jan: and so was the treatment actually a radiation or, or was it Yes, actually. Did they do an incision and, and take It was a lumpectomy or both?

Laura: So we did, because of my age. Um, you know, the doctor was like, well, there's good news and there's bad news. The good news is you're really young. The bad news is you're really young, and so there's a lot more time for this to come back. Right. So that's why I had to be careful with this. Mm-hmm. 

Jan: You 

Laura: know, I've more years to live, so there's more, the odds are higher that it will come back.

Jan: Right. 

Laura: Um, and so that's when they talked about radiation because, you know, I had the choice to just have a lumpectomy and not do radiation, but that was highly advised against because of my age. Mm-hmm. Um, radiation dropped it down like 30%. I mean, it was a huge, I mean, it, it was like no brainer. I'm like, no, I can't, you know?

Um. And so that's when we opted for radiation. Thankfully I didn't have to do chemo because it was so contained. They weren't concerned about doing chemo, um, which I was very thankful for. But the radiation, you know, that was, um, every day for 20 days, you know, going every day to the hospital. Um. And being in there, I mean, talk about like the stress and anxiety.

I mean, I was, I was actually, I went for my follow up just recently and it took me a minute to regulate because you're going into this space and it's just filled with people who are dying. You know? I mean, and every day I was going to these places and sitting around with all of them. Right, right. And I mean.

You actually start meeting people, like you actually start, you know, because people tend to go at the same time and get the radiation and, and then you start hearing stories and, and there are pe like there are people that this is like their last ditch effort, you know? And, and you're just sitting there and you're taking all this in and, and there's gratitude there, right?

Because I get to go home and know that I'm gonna probably be okay. Mm-hmm. Right? But then there's this, then there's just this overwhelming, like everything, everything is just like. Sick. Sick. You know, like you're, this is 

Jan: hopeless. It's sick. Yeah. Yeah. You're dying. It's, it's, you know, depressing, you know? Oh my God.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's a lot. 

Laura: It's a lot. 

Jan: And so radiation is where you basically, uh, go in and lie down and they, they have, uh. Some kind of a laser or something. Is that what that is? 

Laura: Yes. So they it's, it's, it's wild. I mean, and again, like I, I made friends with all these nurses. They're awesome people. All these radiation techs.

I still know them. We're going out to dinner at some point here in the next couple weeks. Um, but they, you know, one was, has been doing this for. My gosh, like 30 or 40 years. And so she's seen, you know, so much advancement over time where, you know, 20 years ago or 30 years ago, I mean, it was like burning people.

It was like horrible. That's what I 

Jan: thought. 

Laura: Yeah, no, it's, it's really bad. It's changed, right? And even though it has changed, I mean, it was. It was not comfortable. It's painful. Yeah. Not in the process, but it's, it's like a, the worst sunburn you've ever gotten, like, you know, and it's, and it keeps going. So like, after I finished my 20 rounds, um, then it keeps going.

It's almost like, um. You know how, I mean, the only way I can equate this too is like when we all had acne and they're like, well, if you do this, you know it's gonna pull everything out of your skin. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like you're washing your face and you're like, this is gonna make everything better, and then all of a sudden all the stuff starts coming outta your skin.

That's what happens with radiation. Oh. So. You doing the radiation and like two weeks in you're like, oh, okay, well this is, this is okay. And then it starts, your skin starts changing, it gets red, it gets really painful. Mm-hmm. And then once you finish it, then it starts like blistering and everything starts coming out.

It it is the strangest thing. Wow. It really is strange. 

Jan: And so how long did you After 20 days, it keeps going. You said, so did it ever stop after that 

Laura: or is it 

Jan: still It 

Laura: does, it prob about a month. About a month after that was when I started feeling like, okay, my skin is back to normal. But it's strange things.

I mean. I don't know how, like much you all wanna know, but it's really strange things, Alice, us, whatever you would like. Okay. Yeah, it's really strange things. Um, and this will sound really funny and maybe this is too vulnerable, but we always, your breast changes after you have radiation and after you have surgery.

Like it doesn't, it is not the same. And so there was a period of time after I had, after I was done with radiation, that I just had this like. Yucky oozy stuff that was like underneath my nipple, and it was just Mm, interesting. I was like, what is this? Yeah. Like nobody, you know, like nobody tells you.

Nobody tells you that. I was gonna ask 

Patti: what the side effects of radiation, right? Yeah. Well 

Laura: that's one of them. And uh, be careful what you read because I had a total panic moment because the part of the stuff you read is like, oh, that probably means you have more cancer that's coming in. Oh yeah. And then I started panicking about that and thank God I had my.

Radiation techs number. Um, and I texted her, I was like, I'm so sorry to bother you, but I am freaking out. And she's like, oh, Laura, it is really okay. Like, it's, that's normal. She's like, it's just your skin. Because like imagine when your skin is peeling from a sunburn. Sure. Right. And there's moisture. It was just all the skin that was like, you know.

Jan: Mm-hmm. Like 

Laura: kind of coming together and, um, but man, I mean, I just was thinking. You know, what, what do we like? How do we, I dunno what's going on here? You know? Um, um, so there's all these things you don't, I mean, it's kinda like childbirth too, right? They don't, don't tell you all the things that are gonna happen afterward.

'cause they're like, we don't need you being terrified before you have the children. People would stop breeding. Right, exactly. 

Jan: Which I support by the way. We always talk about childbirth that like that is that once it happens. And it's such a horrible experience. You forget about it then, you know? Right.

And then you go for another kid, right. And you're like, you know, you, you conveniently compartmentalize or, or it disappears, right? 

Yes, exactly. So probably 

the intensity of this whole experience, you know, kind of like as the time goes on, but 

yes. 

Laura: Wow. Laura. Yes. Yes. Which is another odd thing. Just as a side note, what you're just talking about, there's, there's a part of me and thank God I've done my own work, you know?

Is, did that really happen? Yeah, that 

Jan: makes sense. You know, 

Laura: it, it's, it's a weird thing because I still have my breasts. I'm, you know, I'm healthy again. And I'm like, did that, did that really happen? 

Jan: Right. 

Laura: You know. So it's a, it's a very odd feeling. 

Patti: Yeah, I was going to ask about that. Part of it actually is right, because there's this, this physical aspect of it that's happening and you're, so I imagine enveloped in the physicality of everything.

Mm-hmm. But. There is, and I think Jan sort of said, you know, you're taking care of your children at the same time and protecting their emotions and you're still, am I going to die? And I imagine even if you reach that point where you're like, okay, this, this in this moment is not going to be killing me, you know?

But it's still faced with mortality. Yeah. It's still faced with the fragility of our bodies and, you know. Mm-hmm. So what was that like for you and, and did you, as a counselor yourself and working with counselors mm-hmm. Did you make sure that you had that kind of support? Um, what did that part of it look like as you were going through this?

Laura: Yeah. Well, I will say, you know, the hardest. Part is you realize who the people are that are really, you know, in your corner. Yeah. And that was a, that was an interesting revelation, right? Um, there were people that I knew would be in my corner, right? Like Ashley, of course. Right. Um, but then there were people that thought would be there that weren't.

Jan: Mm. 

Laura: And so, and then there were people that surprised me. So it was just very interesting about like even the awareness of a support network. Um, that was pretty, um, that was an interesting piece of it. Um, I did realize too that going through this, um, you really want the women in your life around you.

Mm-hmm. 

Jan: Yeah. 

Laura: You know, um, it's not that husbands can't be supportive. It's not that they can't be there, but there's just a different level of nurturing that comes from the women in your lives that, um, that they can't provide. You know? I mean, yeah. It's, it's hard. And, you know, men don't have breasts. They don't have, you know, they don't have this.

You feel like you're being invaded all the time, you know? And, um, yeah, of course they can get other things that feel invasive, but it's, it's just a different, it's a, it's a different feeling, right? So, um, let's 

Jan: face it, women, as we've done menopause, perimenopause, ha you know, have we done having babies? We haven't done like this.

No, we haven't done that. We're 

Patti: gonna be doing that. Yeah. But for 

Jan: all the things that. That we go through that men don't. I mean, uh, and you know, it's, it's, it's all invasive actually. 

Laura: Yes, it is. It's very invasive. Um, and, you know, you can't, I don't think a man can really appreciate that kind of feeling.

Mm-hmm. That this is really invading my life and. I do think the responsibility that ends up being on women in general, um, whether you're a mother or you're not, or you're married or you're not, it's like, we can do it all right? Like, right. You know, the whole messaging around this was, this was fascinating.

Um, the messaging around my diagnosis was, this is gonna be a blip on your radar. You're still gonna be able to work, you're still gonna be able to do everything that you need to do and make it through this. Who sent that message? My nurse. Oh, really? Yes, my nurse. Wow. And because that's the message that women are given.

Don't slow down. You don't have to. Yeah. Right. Like And so stuck it up. Right. And it really hit me because like, I don't remember, maybe this was February, I can't remember. Anyway, my husband was having cataract surgery and his whole life shut down for a week. Yeah. I 

Jan: was like on this, bro. I know, I know exactly 

Patti: what, yeah.

Well when you were saying that, I was thinking my brother had a mono one time and it was like the world was ending, like he was dying and it was just like, it is the end of the world. And he, I remembered him laying on the couch just like, oh, it's. And that's what it's like for a lot of men is they get a cold and it's the end of the world and women are supposed to just chug along and take care of their children and their family while they're also fighting breast cancer.

Right? Treatments that are draining them emotionally, mentally, physically, you know. Women versus we just, we just keep on going, 

Laura: keep on keeping on. That's what we do. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's just, it's crazy. And the messaging, right? Like, and I do, I have compassion for men because I think that's the message they're given too, is like, absolutely, you can't handle this, so you have to, you need to take some time to rest.

And women are like, oh no, we just keep up life as in general, and then also add in the hour and a half in your day to go do radiation. Right. Right. You know, 

Jan: so Right. Come back and get back to work. Right? Yes. So, so if you were to say, Laura, a message, if you were to give it to women today that get a diagnosis like breast cancer or get a diagnosis like skin cancer.

Uh, I've not had melanoma, but I've had everything else. Um, yeah. What would you be saying to women for them to actually take care of themselves? 

Laura: Well, I mean, I think, you know where I would say, 'cause I do think, you know, when we have women that are in later stages of cancer, and I think this is the, the important piece, right?

Mm-hmm. Like I think where, where I started actually almost like gaslighting myself was, this isn't a big deal, you're gonna be fine. Right? Minimizing it. Yes. And um, I think that for the people that we're talking to, you know, we're not talking to the women, you know, that have stage two, stage three, stage four breast cancer because, um.

That's different. Mm-hmm. Right. They, they, they literally can't, you can't go to chemo. You can't go to radio. I mean, there's, there's no way you can maintain what you have to do in those arenas. I mean, you are at the mercy of the doctors and you are at the mercy of everybody else. And I think the stage where it's like where I was, and stage one I would say is there's more of this idea that.

This isn't a big deal. Mm-hmm. This is just gonna be a blip on the radar. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Laura: And it's not. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. You know, 

Laura: and so, you know, I would say like, rely on the support because I think where I kept going was I should be able to handle this. Yeah. It's not bad. I don't, it's not that bad. Like I'm, it's fine. And, um.

And so it's, that piece is, is the piece I think that a lot of, um, people that might have this diagnosis or, you know, like a very, an earlier stage, like stage one is this idea of like, well, you're gonna make it so it shouldn't be that scary. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. Right, 

Laura: right. Or you're gonna be fine. So just put up with what you have to get through to, to get it gone.

Right. And the only thing that, again, is different is, is, okay, so I'm most likely not going to die from this. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Laura: I'm still doing everything else that everybody else is doing in regard. Right. And this. 

Jan: Right, right, right. So maybe it's a wake up call to look at your life for your self care, your friends.

Yes. Slowing down what, what's message kind of thing would you say or, 

Laura: yeah, because I think that that's something that I've really considered with this. Mm-hmm. Is what are, what's really important. To me. Yeah. 

Jan: Yep, yep. Wow. 

Laura: You know, and I know that stress and fatigue are bad for cancer, right? I mean, we know that.

We know that they're inflammatory things. And so how do I start to structure my life so that this doesn't come back? 

Jan: Mm-hmm. You know, 

Laura: how do I structure my life to really prioritize my own needs and my own care? And um, and I think that's important for women. Mm-hmm. You know, I do think, you know, yeah. I don't know.

I mean, I, again, I don't know this to be a hundred percent true, but I do know that, you know, the stress in my life prior to this was like astronomical. And so, um, I have, you know, again, no genetic markers, no, like nothing. And here it is. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, okay, what was I not, not in a, you know, in a blaming myself kind of way, but looking at like, okay, what could I be doing differently?

That to make my life to flourish more versus feel like I'm. You know? 

Jan: Right. Because you know it's interesting, I told you another friend who actually tonight in like three hours, I'm gonna go have dinner with her and she had breast cancer. Well, Uhhuh and she's on Tamoxifen. That's one of the things you were struggling with.

And she, I remember meeting with her. Uh, about three months ago, and she said she's been on Tamoxifen. See, I don't know. She's had it maybe a few years that she's been on and is deciding to stay on it. Yes. And I was thinking, gosh, how do you know about all that? What, what is that? So can you say Yeah.

Anything about that? Yeah. 

Laura: Well this is interesting, right? And so with, so there's different levels of tamoxifen and if you are probably in the stage one. Category or stage two, um, they will give you 20 milligrams of tamoxifen. And Tamoxifen is an estrogen blocker. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. So it 

Laura: doesn't keep your body from producing estrogen, but it, it blocks estrogen from important parts of your body.

Right. And I did not know everything that estrogen actually, you know, like regulates in your body. I had no idea, you know, until I started taking this. And so. I was already perimenopausal at the time. Mm-hmm. Um, so I was already noticing certain things in my body. Yeah. Um, but anyway, with my. With my stage of breast cancer, they have now found that you can give a woman five milligrams of Tamoxifen, and it does the same thing as 20 milligrams.

Right. Hmm. Great. But what they also tell you is that at five milligrams, you should have no side effects. Okay. Famous last words, huh? Right. So the most confusing and infuriating thing that I have discovered, okay. Is that. I've gone to my doctors twice and I love my doctors. My doctors are actually amazing people.

I'm not throwing 'em under the bus at all. I think this is just the state of women's health, right? 

Jan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Laura: This discovery is new, right? So this whole five milligrams of tamoxifen is just in the last like maybe five years. Okay? So it's pretty new that they're telling women you could do this. And so I've gone twice and I've said my memory is bad.

I had 10 days of severe depression. Jan saw me during that time. Yep, yep. Um, I've had, my ear is clogged all the time, like all the time. I'm constantly unplugging my ear. Um, I've had. Weight fluctuations, weird weight fluctuations. Um, my period is all outta whack. Yeah. 

Jan: Like 

Laura: one cycle, it's 28 days. The next cycle it's 40 days.

Then I for 10, and then I'm, you know, it, it's all over the map. 

Jan: Are you having hot flashes and Yes. 

Laura: And night sweats. Can't sleep. Yep. Can't sleep. Oh my 

Jan: gosh. 

Laura: Yep. 

Jan: Can't 

Laura: sleep. Yep. Yep. All the things. Mm-hmm. So I go in and they look at me and they're like, well, we think that's probably coincidental.

I just happened to start going into menopause, like the day I took this medication. I don't think that's just crazy talk. Right, right. And so anyway, you know, so the, then I went back again and they're like, yeah, we just, you, you shouldn't be having any symptoms or side effects. So research shows, and here's the key phrase.

The research shows that five milligrams doesn't have any effect on women's bodies. Oh dear. So Ashley actually said this to me the other day. She goes, well, if they're telling women that this isn't because of the Tamoxifen, then how are they getting any research on what is happening to women when they take five milligrams of Oxy?

Like they're not writing down. Laura has blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're just saying, that's not the Tamoxifen. Yeah. So again, you know, it's this whole rigamarole of like what's causing what and, and also like what choices do I have? I don't really have any choices. I can't take estrogen because it doesn't really matter.

Estrogen is bad for my cancer, right? Yeah. Mine is estrogen and progesterone dependence, so I can't do that ever. Um, and coming off Tamoxifen is not a good idea because that makes sure chances go way up as well. Yeah. 

Jan: Wow. So 

Laura: right now I'm just kind of like navigating. Weird side effects that may or may not be go away to the ox stage, 

Jan: you know, forever or holy cow.

Right? Yeah. 

Patti: It's so, I mean, so many things that you've mentioned today as we've been talking it, they're just these. Crazy reminders of the gaslighting that happens with women. Yes. Mm-hmm. And the medical industry. And it is so sad that we have to scream to advocate for ourselves because of things like that.

Mm-hmm. Right. It really is absurd and it's, it's so sad that it, yeah. We aren't just 

Laura: hurt. Right. I mean, and you know, I mean, I know we all joke about chat GBT and I would never tell somebody to believe what chat GBT says above a doctor, but. I put into chat GPT, just thinking like, 'cause I've never been able to take birth control.

Like I, I've never ever been able to do that. It, it, it messes with me. I can't, I just have never been able to do it anyway. I typed in, if you're sensitive to birth control, could you respond differently to five milligrams of tamoxifen? And the answer was resoundingly. Absolutely yes. Wow. And so, and has any medical professional ever asked me that?

No. Like they've never asked. Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Yeah. So through this process that you've been through, having these moments where you're either waiting to get information or you're getting information that maybe doesn't feel supportive of you, what resources did you use or rely on? To either, I know you mentioned your community, but like to really find that support for yourself or to at least calm and ease yourself as you were going through this, especially in these moments where you felt essentially like you're being gaslit.

Laura: Yeah. You know, I mean, I was lucky enough to, in my support system, actually have a nurse who's an oncologist. Oh. Like an oncology nurse. Nice. Amazing. Amazing. So I could ask her these questions. Um, I also had a, um, a good friend who was a medical professional as well that kind of was helping, you know, 'cause of course you get your results with things before the doctor calls you.

Right. Anymore. And so, um, it's, it has been beneficial to have people that really know what they're talking about and women that can say, Hey, you need to ask this question. You need to ask this question. I've had, I had another friend who went through a similar, um. A similar diagnosis. So she was also a good resource.

Mm-hmm. Um, because she would tell me like, Hey, you need to make sure you're doing this. You need to make sure you're asking these questions. Um, be careful. I mean, with the internet is too, it's very scary. Yeah. You know, I mean it, some real, some websites are super reliable and others are just like. You don't know what's, you know, where it's coming from.

So I mean, reliable ones like Mayo Clinic or mm-hmm. Um, uh, MD Anderson, um, you know, a lot of these where I go, I went is Sarah Cannon. Um, and they have a lot of good research going on right now too. So a lot of these, um, cancer institutes, I would say Sarah Cannon is doing a really good job trying to figure out women's health.

Jan: Hmm. 

Laura: Um. They're actually trying to do an, um, like a women's health center, which is pretty amazing. Um, what's it called? 

Jan: Sarah Cannon. Sarah 

Laura: Cannon, yes. I've 

Jan: never, is that a woman or is that a, an institute? 

Laura: Yes. Yes. It's a woman and there's a whole story about her and I, I should have looked it up before, but it's okay.

Yeah, I think she's actually from Nashville and, um, just donated a ton of money and so they named this institute after her. I think that's the story behind it, but. Anyway. Um, so I mean, resources like that, you know, just really educating yourself as much as you possibly can on the facts, right? Yeah. Like I had to be careful with that, um, because.

People have a story about everything. I mean, believe me. Yeah. Oh yeah. 

Jan: Sarah Cannon is out of Nashville. It's, uh, Sarah Cannon Research Institute. Yes. We're doing conducting cancer trials in the community for more than 30 years, and she's outta Nashville. So yes. That's good resource. 

Laura: Yes, it's a great resource.

Um, yeah, I'm trying to think. You know, and also, you know, I mean, I think, um, having, um. Having a counselor is really good. You know, I do think that, um, I think getting through this, like I used a lot of my tools that I've learned over years. Mm-hmm. Um, meditative practices, breathing practices, containment practices, you know, um, a lot of these, you know.

Kind of things that we work in every day where these fears show up and there's some parts that are rational fears. And then there's some parts that are like when confusion sets in, my younger parts come alongside and they're like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? And I'm like, we do this, it's okay. You know?

So I mean, using a lot of those, um, you know, mental health tools as well has been helpful. 

Jan: So, yeah. That's great. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Wow. So much for 

Patti: sharing all of this. Yeah. I mean, you're welcome. Yeah. It's, it's always. So helpful to hear people's stories and to hear women's stories. Mm-hmm. Especially, and I think when it comes, I, I think, like you said, you know, men can understand other, everybody can understand everybody who goes through cancer, something that can understand that.

But breast cancer I think is very unique in that way. And I think, like my sister-in-law, um, had breast cancer and had a double mastectomy and everything like that. Yeah. And there's this. This part of, you know, our society, especially that breasts are so feminine, so connected to being a woman. And when all of that gets affected in that way, what that I imagine brings into, and I know for her, you know, brings into question.

And you know, there's just that part of it that I think you're right. It's hard to understand unless you're a woman, right. And. Um, and have gone through that, or even just being a woman that understands from some perspective of, of that. 

Laura: Totally. Totally. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, it's, it's, I think you're right on that.

And, and even, you know, I mean, even prior to going through this, I had no idea. You know, I, when I thought about a mastectomy, I thought, oh, well they just, you know, take 'em off and put some new ones on. Well, that's not at all what happens. No. You know, it's not at all. And they're never the same. You know, they're, they're not even breasts anymore.

Mm-hmm. Correct. They don't have nipples that's like mm-hmm. No, no. Or, or feeling there's no, or feeling nothing. There's no sensation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's very 

Patti: strange. Right. Yeah. My, my sister-in-law calls them her fobs, her fakes. Yes. Her fobs, fake fobs. Yes. Food. Exactly. Her food, yeah. Show we like video and while she's in the tub and she's like, oh, doesn't matter.

They're justs. 

Laura: Yeah, they're justs. Yeah. They really aren't. It's just, yeah, I know. Oh dear. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of things that you just don't know. Yeah. And you know, I think too, just one last thought. You know, I was thinking about this with, you know, even just this, uh, the way that, you know, my mother forgot to mention, I think.

Mm-hmm. 

Jan: What 

Laura: in women's health, for example, I think the power and you guys doing this is our moms didn't know right. You know? Right. They didn't even have the Right some of this, you know, quote unquote Right. This information. 

Jan: Right. 

Laura: Um, and I think it's really powerful what you're doing because you're, you're actually empowering people to actually talk about the things that, you know, even, even if my parents did talk about things, right?

Yeah. They, my mom didn't get the same healthcare that every, that men got in that day anyway. You know, I mean. Right. You know, and, and so I think what you're, what you all are doing just from this, from this angle is so powerful because I think it's really helping people talk more, you know? Yes. And really talk about the hard things, like, yep, we can do this.

You know, that's exactly what 

Jan: we 

Laura: do. 

Jan: Yeah. Talk the hard things, you know, because yes, so much has been hidden and minimized and kept in the closet, and, and we're not about that. So Yeah. 

Laura: No. 

Jan: No. 

Laura: Yeah. Nope. No, absolutely. Well, thank you. Thank you so 

Jan: much for coming in and being a part of our podcast and, um, I love it, Tony, and I really appreciate, uh, and I'm glad I found the whole story, got the whole story from you, and have some compassion for you.

So, well, 

Laura: thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's been an interesting year, that's for sure. Yes, 

Jan: yes, for sure. So thanks for coming. 

Yeah, 

thank you. I 

Laura: love y'all. 

Jan: Ditto.

Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends, 

Patti: subscribe 

Jan: and 

Patti: leave a review. And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional. 

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest.

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. You can find links to both of those over at our website at things my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes. Thank you.