Breaking the Silence: Living Through and Beyond Sexual Abuse

In this episode, Patti shares her experience of childhood sexual abuse, what healing has looked like over the decades, and why it’s so important that we talk about the things that were buried under shame, silence, or secrecy for way too long.

We’re not getting into graphic details—but we are talking honestly about the emotional toll and long-term impact of being hurt by someone who was supposed to protect you.

Here’s what we dive into:

• How trauma shows up in your adult body, even when your mind doesn’t “remember”
• The difference between being a victim and choosing healing
• The complications of caretaking for the very people who failed to protect you
• How to recognize signs of abuse in children—and why it’s never too late to speak out
• What experiential therapies, boundaries, and nervous system work can do for your healing

This one is vulnerable, raw, and real—but it’s also filled with hope.

If this topic is hard for you, please take care of yourself first. Hit pause if you need to. And know you're not alone.

Resources mentioned:

• Gifts from a Challenging Childhood by Jan Bergstrom
• Running on Empty by Jonice Webb
• The Courage to Heal by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis
• Experiential therapy modalities: ART (Accelerated Resolution Therapy), Gestalt, Inner Child Work

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Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, the podcast where we say everything 

Patti: our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body. Aging and all the wait, what moments of womanhood? 

Patti: And I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me? 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two, outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning to mental health perimenopause.

And scalp cancer. Yes. Really 

Patti: nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. Hello, Jan. Hey there, Patty. Good to see you today. Good to see 

Patti: you. 

Jan: How 

Patti: are you? 

Jan: I'm doing pretty good. A little stress, but for the most part I'm doing, uh, great. And I'm, I'm looking forward to our.

Uh, podcast or talk today. So, uh, I'm sure you must feel some, um. Maybe make up anxiety or fear about talking about this or, I'm a little nervous actually. Yes. 

Patti: Yeah. So, which is interesting because it's something that I talk about really comfortably and I have spoken about with, with people in my life, and, um, but it's still, you know, sometimes sharing it because it's so vulnerable.

I think that I do feel a little bit nervous. Um, but I am excited, for lack of a better term, to talk about it just to share, because, you know, today we're talking about childhood, sexual abuse, sexual abuse, um, in general. And, um, you know, it's really, I think, important to to talk about it because people don't talk about it enough.

And unfortunately, and I wanna say it in a way that's like, not to normalize it, but it is. A normal thing that happens that is not normal, right? So it is an unhealthy thing, but so many people experience it that I want to normalize talking about it and I want to say so many. 

Jan: My clients who, yeah. 30 years that I've been in practice have had, I, I can't tell you how many had sexual abuse.

So many, how many tried to talk to their parents or their family, or to a principal or to whatever, and no one believed them or said not to talk about it. Oh, well it's over, so stop it. 

Right. And 

because, and it's, it's deadly. And it's really in the past, oh, I'd say. Probably five to 10 years. It's becoming more open.

People are talking about it, but it was, it's rampant years ago. Yeah. And still is. Still is. And no one wants to talk about it. Right. It's uncomfortable wants just of the 

Patti: piece. Yeah. And there's, and so I think before we get into it, I wanna say a couple of things. So one, I want to acknowledge that this can be a really triggering topic for a lot of people.

And so if you're listening to this. And you don't have resources available or you know, whether that be a therapist or somebody you care for or your own internal resources, it might be a good time to pause and get that before you listen. We're not gonna talk about anything in detail. We're not describing anything, right?

We're talking more about the experience on a higher level and impact and, and how to kind of move forward from that. Um, but it is something that, and if you haven't experienced it. I think it's great to listen as well because you likely know somebody who has whether or not you realize it. Mm-hmm. And so understanding what people go through can be really helpful for you if you've never experienced it, so that you know how to support people in your life 

Jan: Also.

What's really important about it besides supporting your friends who may have gone through it, is if you decide to ever be a parent, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: You're gonna wanna make sure that you see the signs and you protect your child because it's out there. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. And statistically so I did look up some statistics as we, you know, before I got into this.

And it is one in five girls and one in 20 boys experience childhood sexual abuse. And, um, it's typically the ages of seven to 13 that children experience that the most. It's the, the most, um. Uh, at risk age ranges for child with sexual abuse. So at one in five that is, think about our population. I mean, unbelievable.

The chance that, you know, somebody is one in five. So you very likely, whether or not you realize that, you know somebody in the same with sexual assault. So, so if you're listening to this, I'm excited to have you here and I'm, I'm happy to, to. To share my experience. Um, 

Jan: well, one thing I appreciate about you, Patty, is that there's so much shame attached to people who have had sexual abuse that they don't wanna talk about it.

Yeah. And just like Kathy was really, you know, she was really adamant and she was like, this is to teach all those women about menopause, you know, for you to do something different. And this episode is really, uh, in that way, the same thing is yes. Okay, listen, and even though you're feeling triggered, this is really important that people talk about it, even though people feel a lot of shame.

So, 

Patti: yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you doing this. Yeah. And, and. And I think I'll talk about that as well. But I've definitely had that, you know, of course, feeling shameful, feeling broken, feeling dirty, feeling like it's my fault in some way, but it's never, ever your fault, ever. And there is nothing shameful about it because it's not your fault and you did nothing right to, to cause that.

So. So my experience, um, and I've mentioned this a little bit in, in a previous episode, but, um, so I was abused, sexually abused by my father, and it started when I was under two years old and lasted until I was. About eight or nine, which is when he moved out, my parents got divorced and, and he, um, remarried his ex-wife.

And so when he moved out is when it stopped. But basically as long as he was living with us, it, it was happening. And so for me it was very long term. It was very frequent. And so it was pretty much made up my childhood. Right. And so. Oh, wow. Yeah. 

Jan: So, um, the first questions that go into my mind is, so did your mom know anything about it?

Mm-hmm. And the second one is, is if she did, what was she doing to protect you or other children in your family? Right. 

Patti: So, um, the first time I ever said anything, it was to actually my maternal, my paternal grandmother. So his. Mother. His mother. So I was very close to her. And so I was in first grade. That was the first time, well, technically the first time I said something, I think I was like three or four.

And I like had walked out in the living room or something and said, daddy touches me here. And my mom heard, heard it, and she was like, we, I was wetting my bed still. So she was thinking, oh, well we check her at night to see if she's wet. And so that's what she thought, but. So this is in the early eighties and she remembers thinking.

Thank goodness no neighbors were here. What would they have thought? Ironically, um, that's what everybody 

Jan: does, 

Patti: right? What is everybody gonna 

Jan: think? 

Patti: So let's, right. Well, we wish that they had thought something because, um, and so then in first grade I told my grandmother, um, a bit of a detailed account because I remember very specifically what I said to her.

And she told my mother a slightly altered version. Um, and. My mother says that she came to me, but I was little when, you know, I was in first grade and um, and then I told her no, I don't remember that. Of course my memories from childhood because of this long-term abuse are very sporadic. I have certain memories and certain knot.

So, uh, but I do remember some of those pieces. And so she at that point, um, told him to go to therapy, um, and. 

Jan: Your mom told your father to go to therapy, father to go to 

Patti: therapy? Yeah. That was, that. Was that, did he get help? 

Jan: Did he get any help? 

Patti: Who knows? He was a patholo. He is a pathological liar, and so he would always, who knows if he actually went?

Um, I know that that's what she said. Supposedly she said that she, she has told me that she. Had asked me again, you know, is anything happening? But I always said no, which is normal for children because they're protecting or they're afraid or whatever. My father never, 

Jan: or they're being threatened or they're being threatened.

Patti: Threatened, right? Mm-hmm. And he wasn't threatening to me. I was spoiled. So I was the one that got the special treatment. I was right. So in that way, that was the, the way of manipulation, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but I wasn't ever threatened by him. Like I was never said. You know, something bad is gonna happen if you say anything.

It was just sort of an unspoken thing. And I think for me, because it started when I was so little, I didn't know any better. Like I didn't, I just knew it was something happening I didn't like. I didn't know there was something wrong with it, right? Mm-hmm. Because it was all I had known, right? So I didn't know how to speak that.

So it wasn't then until, and then I had said things like, I'd say something to a friend of mine, um, and she stopped talking to me immediately, but, but I didn't know, right? I think I said something like, oh, my dad and I have sex, or My dad has sex with me. And she was like, what? And the next day I went over, she was my best friend and I wasn't allowed back in their house.

And so like she had told her grandmother, her grandmother did nothing about it, and then just I was banned from their home. 

Jan: So she was how old when she said that? Uh, my daddy has sex with me. I was, it was me. You were, 

Patti: I was, I said that to my friend. That was my way of trying and I was probably. Eight, third, second.

Yeah, maybe something like that, second or third because I imagine I was probably at that point starting to try to say things right after first grade and um, 'cause it stopped when I was in third, when grades are the best way for me for ages. So like eight or nine is when it stopped. So it had to have been seven or eight or something.

And, and I'm so sorry 

Jan: because yeah. How I, how I look at it, and every therapist we've trained is, is that the parents really weren't protecting you. Correct. They weren't clued in. Correct. And your mom really fell down on the job and mm-hmm. She stayed married to a a, a perpetrator is really what the issue is.

Correct. And. I don't know, did he ever get a diagnosis like a sex addict? Like he must have been sexually abused himself. 

Patti: So that's what he, so I mean, he went to prison for it. So ultimately when I said something to my mother eventually, because it started coming out for me when he moved out, that was it for me.

And I think internally I lost it because I was safe for the first time. And so I started having these. Like bouts of rage that I don't even remember. I'd black out rage and there were knives involved and I was very violent and very angry, and I would throw these big fits and just these big emotions, you know?

Yeah. Because I didn't know what to do with them. Mm-hmm. And it was all these years built up. Mm-hmm. And so built up, uh, at that point I finally, my mom didn't know what to do with me anymore because I would throw these huge tantrums and these big things, and eventually I finally just said. Mom, what?

Sexual abuse. And she was like, oh. And just like sit down. And what? What did it for me was actually, I saw this Oprah special was on tv and I remember this very distinctly. I was in my nightgown and it was like an evening episode and it was this little girl and she was drawing pictures of what her grandfather did to her, and everybody was making a big deal about it on the show when I went.

Oh yeah. And she was using the term sexual abuse, and I went mm-hmm. Oh, something's right. This wasn't right. Okay. And so at that point, I had a name for it. Mm-hmm. And so that's when I finally said something to my mom. And she immediately at that point, but he was already moved out. It was already, you know, she went into action and went to our therapist.

We were seeing a therapist for the divorce because they thought that's why I was acting out. And so. It all started and he went, you know, to prison. Yeah. Um, and all of that. And during that process, he said, how long did 

Jan: he go to prison for? 

Patti: He was sentenced to 15 years. He was in for seven and a half. Wow.

Good behavior. Um, so, 

Jan: well, Patty, I am, so first of all, I'm just really sorry to hear that. That was, I mean, to me, uh, from two until five or six kids don't have the, the. Information to know when something's wrong. Right? All they know and, and really, I remember when studying with Pia Melody and she talks about young sexual abuse.

Um, too, too, like your age six or seven is kids experience it as really either painful or icky dirty, and they don't enjoy it. Right? The issue comes when, and this is not your case, but when it continues into teen years, like you said, up to 13 or 14, it actually ends up being something. They start feeling like loved by whoever's doing that, whether it's.

And the father, or it's the cousin, or it's the uncle, or it's whatever it is. Yeah. But they feel, and that's where we talk about that if a child is severely neglected, they start looking for love in all the wrong places. Right. And if something like that's happening that's like that they're being loved and they let it happen.

Yeah. And typically. What happens is they end up having some kind of sex addiction when they grow older, especially for, um, men, boys, going through that. Then they become the perpetrator and they end up finding someone to do that with. And it's, it's a, you know, it keeps on passing down to the next generation.

So it's generation and that's 

Patti: exactly, yeah. My father ultimately had said, now again, he's a pathological liar, so take that as everything as he says, you know? But he said that, that he was abused by his grandfather. Mm-hmm. 

Jan: And 

Patti: then. Somehow or another, a lot of it gets blurry. But I was in a room with him, like during the court stuff or I don't know, something like that with lawyers and, and he said that the reason was he didn't know the difference between love and sex and so.

You know, which of course I then internalize a ped dealing with therapy now. Yeah. 

Jan: Your father's a pedophile. That's correct. And I'm not laughing at it, I'm just thinking No. Oh, no, no, no. He love and sex and he's talking about that when you're four years old. Like, oh, okay. You know? Hello. 

Patti: Yeah. No, no, 

Jan: exactly.

But that's, that's the issue is that in other people we know at younger girls at one in five. Are really vulnerable and if they are not protected by the other parent and the parents checked out, things like this happen to 'em. Right. And it, it's egregious behavior. Yeah. And it is something that it damages people.

I mean, I'm sure it's damaged you. I know you went to therapy, everything, something. Well, yeah. And still because Yeah. It's, it's a violation of your boundary. Absolutely. Your sexual boundary. 

Patti: Yeah. It is. Something that, so there a couple things there. So one. You know, it is something that I, I wasn't able to deal with looking, you know, with my mother, right?

Talk about things my mother forgot to mention. Um, protecting me, staying protected in that way. Um, I wasn't able until I was an adult to look at that neglect that happened on her part because I needed her. And so there was no way for me to. To say, oh wow, mom is, there's partial blame here for this. Her not protecting me the way that she needed to during this period of time, and that this happened under, you know, in, in her home.

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: You know, for all of these years. And so that's something I deal with now that that's, that's a now thing, that's a thing that I, I work through now in therapy, is now how do I reconcile that? Mm-hmm. Um, but at the time, she was all I had, so I had, I couldn't, I, I, right. Could not process that. So, um, but I did.

Yeah. So I mean, starting to talk about the impact of that, right? So like I said, when it finally was over. For me, it started to show itself in, and we had talked about this before, anxiety. Yeah. That was when I first started. I was anorexic. I started complaining of stomach pains. I had all these things happening and everybody was like, oh, it's the divorce.

It's the divorce. Because I didn't know about this really? I didn't know about this other thing. 

Jan: Sexual abuse, right? Yeah. But it 

Patti: was, and it was the abuse. And so like I said, I became very violent and all these things, and so I did, at that point I was nine or 10. Maybe even 11. They finally, they put me into a psychiatric hospital.

So I was there for about a month, um, just to kind of manage the anger and, and all of that. And so 

Jan: And did it come out then when you were in the psych hospital? No, it was 

Patti: before then. So they knew, so I told my mom and that's when we started all the process of everything. And then because they finally had a name for what was happening and after, I think he was maybe in prison by that point, or in the process somewhere within there.

They put me in the hospital because they, she didn't know she couldn't handle me. I would, would run away. I was threatening to kill myself. I was playing knives on myself. I cut my brother with a knife. I don't remember any of that. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Um, I was just not, I wasn't available anymore in my mind, you know, it was too much for my little, my little brain to deal with.

And so that's how it was coming out for me. Well, I mean, let's 

Jan: talk about that for just a minute. Yeah. Brain. I mean, uh, in my book I talk about this, that our brains are still, when you're very young, it's not, there's not a lot of myelination. It's all mostly sensation. It's all information that comes in through sensation and, uh, vision and sound and, and touch.

Mm-hmm. Um, because you don't have words for things. Yeah. And then it, it gets to the point where the brain. Uh, it starts myelin, which means that the nerves start wrapping and they fire quicker and go to the prefrontal cortex. There's really no prefrontal cortex development up until about the age 10 or 11.

Yeah. And so 

at 11, you know, it all starts making sense to you. So before that, it was all just in your body. Yeah. Correct. And and that's really what happened. Yeah. And so part of it is, is then once you get more prefrontal cortex on board, you have the ability to kind of see things and it's the executive functioning comes in board.

Right. And that's different. And that's what I'm saying is that you, all of yours was so young, right? It really went inward. Yes, 

Patti: correct. Exactly. And what was really happening with like these, these outbursts and temper tantrums and things I would have is they would always happen at night. Surprise, surprise.

'cause most of the abuse happened at night. Um, and I didn't wanna be in my room. And so since her, my mom's room was safe, I wanted to sleep with my mom. But she of course was like, I don't want, I don't want a kid sleeping with me every night. You know? And, and I get that she didn't under it was before she knew what was happening.

But I could, I didn't know how to say, I don't feel safe. I'm scared. I don't want to be in my room. I just knew how to explode. Right. And so, yeah, so after the hospital we then, you know, had therapy. We moved to California near my mom's family, and I was in therapy then individual one-on-one therapy for quite a while.

I still dealt with a lot of anger issues. I still dealt with a lot of, um, at that point still shame. And, and we've talked about this before too, that. When people go through sexual abuse as a child, oftentimes, as you said, that sex addiction can happen and things like that. Um, and some people will get, end up being really promiscuous and some people mm-hmm.

Kind of go the other extreme. And so I was the other extreme, I was more shut down and didn't like people touching me and anyway. Mm-hmm. So I was more in that, that way, which is why I didn't have sex until. I was 23 or 24. Mm-hmm. So, because I was so shut down and Right. I mean, that being touched was difficult.

You weren't 

Jan: protected. So you correct. Your body, protected you, you know, you, you shut down and, and I mean that's something, you know, that happens to people who've been sexually abused too. Is it? Some of them shut down, used big walls and sometimes they even gain a lot of weight just to be really protected.

Yep. You know. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. Guilty on all charges. Yeah. And that was right, is I exactly, I put on ways to protect myself because what are we told? Well, we're told being, you know, overweight is unattractive, people don't want you. But also it's physical padding, right? It's a, it's a physical barrier that that happens in your body.

But by that point also, I had an eating disorder because it was. And we talked about this before too, like it was the one thing I felt like I could control when my body is the food mm-hmm. Coming in. Um, and so that was a big part of it. The, the benefit for me of. Being aware so young and starting in therapy so young, is that I was able to start learning some regulation when I was young, thank goodness.

And understanding these things. And right from the beginning, you know, people told me it's not your fault. All of these things, which, you know, that's wonderful to hear, but it's hard not to internalize that. And you know, for me, in my head, it was my fault that my father was in prison and, and all of those things, which of course logically that wasn't true, but that doesn't matter.

Jan: Right. And this is another thing that because of young brains that aren't my lionized yet Yeah. Is they take everything in as personal. Yeah. As it's my fault and I'm a bad girl or I'm a bad boy and I'm not gonna, I don't want to hurt mommy, you know, poor mommy or dad, you know, my brothers. 

Patti: Yeah. I took my father away from, from my brother and it's all very 

Jan: self-focused on I'm the problem.

Right. Um, once you get a little bit older, you, you can start hearing that message, but it's not until you do some good experiential work. Yeah. Um, and therapy that you start realizing that, you know, their, their lack of treatment really damaged you and you have a right to be angry about that. Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Yeah, absolutely.

And that was the thing for me is because, you know. Again, that response was, oh, I went into a psychiatric hospital so that I internalized Oh, anger bad. And so I was afraid of being anger angry ever. And so I kind of like dampened down my anger for a really long time and tried to, like, it would come out in outbursts, but I tried to do that, which hello Food, um, you know, because it was more feelings that I was putting down.

Mm-hmm. And so it wasn't really until my. T mid to late twenties. I would say that I started finally looking at anger and saying, okay, how? Like anger is natural, anger is healthy. Mm-hmm. And how can I express anger in a way that is healthy? And to understand that what was happening when I was young wasn't just me expressing anger.

There was so much more in that. Yes. And it's so much of the rest of my life so far has been. Reframing what I experienced as a child, because like you said, it was so internalized. 

Jan: Yes. 

Patti: That. I have to stop and say, oh no, it wasn't anger as bad. It was, oh my God, look at that poor child that was experiencing all these feelings and she just needed to feel safe.

And so therefore, anger isn't scary, and I can experience anger. I'm, I'm not a violent person, right? Like I've never been a violent adult. And so. Anger for me is very different now, and I can, but it took a long time to get there. 

Jan: Anger use with a, a containing boundary, uh, is about being, uh, assertive. It's about having your own back.

Mm-hmm. It's about standing up and, and saying No, uh, that, that's not okay with me. 

Yeah. And, 

uh, you didn't really have a choice for saying no and Right. If you did say no, it probably wouldn't matter either. Correct. So that's, that's the other part is that children are victims. Uh, I don't say that adults are not, uh, but children are victims and they can't say no.

Either they get threatened or they don't know, or they don't wanna hurt daddy and Mommy or they mm-hmm. You know, they translate everything into, you know, I'm, I'm gonna protect them. And, and that, and especially then families don't wanna talk about it because they're like, well, it's over, so let's just get on with life, you know?

Yeah. And yet you're left with, you know, in the wake of, you know, the, a disaster. All kinds of feelings that what, what I would call Patty is the failure to reach into your life experience and really validate what went on for you, 

right? So 

you were so alone. And that happens to a lot of children, is that their parents lack the ability to reach into them and really validate their inner life experience.

And what they wanna do is manage it so the neighborhood doesn't hear. They wanna just shut everything down. And that's the result of huge damage that's done to you, it sounds like, and to others. 

Patti: Yeah, and I will say, you know, the, the piece about that is that, you know, as a child at that point, what I was learning was.

That because I told my grandmother, because I was trying to tell people is now the information I'm receiving back is, oh, this is still occurring. Even though I said, I don't like this happening, I don't want this happening. So, oh, okay. I'm on my own. There is nobody protecting me. That's. That's the message that I received.

I didn't know that. Mm-hmm. He was told to go to therapy, not that that would matter or did matter. Mm-hmm. But that's all I hear is, oh, I've said that I need help and no help has come. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. And 

Patti: so I'm internalizing that. The other piece, and this might feel sensitive, is that, you know, like he didn't. He didn't threaten me, but he would regularly say, oh, did you not want me to come back?

And I would say, no, please. And he would promise. And so now what that built was new trust issues, right? Because now this trusted figure, who's my father and I'm supposed to trust, I'm already grappling, right? Internally. Again, none of this is happening consciously, but like I'm already grappling with the idea of, oh, this person I should trust is hurting me, right?

There's no place now this person I should trust. Is telling is lying to me and is telling me I won't come back. Oh. But then he does. Mm-hmm. And so all of these things, now guess what they do later on is guess what I've dealt with Trust issues. You know, like in relationships. Yeah. Trust issues. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Big time walls. Like I'm very walled off. I, I, let me rephrase that. Importantly, I used to be very walled off. I've been working really hard to change those walls. Yeah. Yeah. And to be very aware of them, because as an adult, right, this is now the work that I get to do. Being conscious of all that stuff and say that, oh, these are now choices.

Right? I'm not a victim. Now I am an adult who now gets to make choices and I get to do the work. Mm-hmm. That leads me towards. A healthy set of relationships with everybody that I'm with, and I get to choose that. I'm very picky about the people in my life, and that's a choice. That's good. You know, that's good.

And I say, okay, these are the people I want in my life I can trust. Yeah, right. 

Jan: Most people though, if they're not treated, if usually end up picking partners that keep recreating the trauma from their past. Oh yeah. And I talk about that actually in my book. Uh, that that happens. And so it's not until you actually do your own work that you can start breaking that pattern and realize where it came from.

Mm-hmm. And so it's really important, uh, to do therapy. To do treatment. Yes. To get out the word, to, to be able to find resources to help yourself because. You know, it is definitely gonna impact your life today. 

Patti: Yeah. The, you know, one of the, so two things on that. One is I've talked about many times already.

My long-term 15 year relationship was with an alcoholic. Oh gosh. Guess what? Alcoholics do, they lie a lot. So that was definitely. A piece that was happening. And so that's something that now in my, like I'm just doing a lot of work right now, so that should I be in a relationship in the future, I'm very conscious of that and I wanna make sure it's healthy, otherwise it's just not worth my time because I just, I don't wanna go that route.

You know? Why torture 

Jan: yourself like that? Exactly. Yeah. It's not worth 

Patti: it. Yeah. Right. It's, yeah, absolutely. And the other piece is that. The very first therapist I had after this came out and so I was again, 11 or something at that point, I think when I was 10, maybe. Um, and it was the first therapist I had out of the hospital and she said to me something that has stuck with me forever.

And I think what was really beautiful about it was that it was the truth. And she said, this is something that is going to impact you for the rest of your life. It won't be always. But there will be periods right where it'll come back up and you'll need to get support. And that was the best thing anybody ever said to me.

That's great because it prepared me as I moved on to know that, oh, I'm having something come up. And that is okay, and that is normal. I will always, this is something that, as we've talked about before, my brain was altered forever through this. Yes, 

Jan: it was. 

Patti: And so it is always stuff that's gonna come up because of it.

Mm-hmm. And that's just a part of it. And I have to get help periodically to move through those things. 

Jan: And so that's brings up this whole idea of experiential therapies, uh, which is really important because it's not just a cognitive in your brain, right? It's also in your body. And it's the whole body.

It's the whole person. And so experiential therapies are much more effective in treating, like you were laughing about the videos of, of our, uh, one of our colleagues who was, uh, videoed and with her permission and she was sexually abused and how triggering that was for you to listen to. 

Mm-hmm. And 

she did a lot of the training with us and did a lot as you heard.

Uh, work around addressing her parents, and that's actually what we call gestalt or chair work. And, uh, some of that's really effective for people because it's also, it's a part of you for the rest of your life. Absolutely. And it's not all of you, but it's a part of you because of what happened. So, yeah. Uh.

Patti: Yeah. And when I was a teenager I did some group therapy. I've tried group therapy a few times. I personally struggled with that. Sure. Because in those particular groups there were a lot of people in stages of victimhood, and that was difficult for me because, and again, I think it's one of those things I feel lucky for that I started so young with my therapeutic journey.

Mm-hmm. Um. That by the point I was in these groups, I was like, but I don't feel like a victim. Mm-hmm. I was a victim of this thing. You were, when you 

Jan: were a child, you were definitely a victim. Yeah. But I'm 

Patti: not now. Mm-hmm. And there, there are some times people who are still living in that victim space. And that's not how I choose to be because again, it's a choice at this point.

And, and I say that to say, it's not that I can push the stuff away, it's to, I choose that when it comes up, I say, oh, all righty, this is. It's time to go back and do more work and it's time to, you know? That's right. It's just a part of it. And so that's what we call 

Jan: the wiser part of you, the wiser self, the functional self, you know?

Yeah. It is a part of you and some people probably in that group, what I'm making up is that they were living out of their victim part. Yes. You know, and they hadn't transitioned to. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now what are you gonna do with your life? And you know, so much, uh, I was just thinking for resources, um, we should put in my book and also another book that's by Janice Webb called Running an Empty, which has to do with.

A childhood emotional neglect, um, where a parent doesn't reach in or believe their child and what's going on. So yeah. And 

Patti: I think the important work right now for me, like I said that I'm doing is, you know, my mother right now, she has a lot of, uh, physical challenges. Yes. And so I'm doing a lot of caretaking with her.

And so that has brought up a lot for me because I feel as though I wasn't taken care of. And yet I have to take care of her. Mm-hmm. And so that's very difficult for me right now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I get, I have these feelings when people say to me, you're such a good daughter, and I kind of wanna be like, F you.

I'm not a good daughter. It's 'cause I feel like I have to. And no, Patty, 

Jan: I really, I I give you a lot of, of kudos to be able to do that. 'cause I felt the same way myself. And um, and here you are and I hear you taking care of your mom and I'm thinking. Wow. That must be really hard because of the stuff that comes up like, Hey, where were you when I needed you?

You know? Right. So, yeah, 

Patti: and that's literally, I mean, it is the, like the, the last five therapy sessions with my therapists have been about this, and this is what we are. Actively doing right now is how do I reconcile the fact that she is my mother? And she did care for us in certain ways. And she, you know, when I was sick, I always felt safe and loved and taken care of.

And, you know, there were those parts of it. She always said, I love you. And, and she was a great mother from that perspective. However, she also wasn't there for that and was neglectful and neglectful to physical abuse that my brother sustained. Mm-hmm. Very severe. And so those things. We now as adults have to reconcile and how can I, as a person say, here is this person that I choose to be a part of their life and help care for them.

And also have these feelings and respect little Patty and what little Patty went through in that part of myself. That's right. And so that's the, that's the work I do right now, and that's just a part of it again, that that comes up. So I think it's important also that like, I haven't been in therapy every single, you know, forever in my life.

Like again, it comes in phases. There are periods of time that I am fine. I'm always fine doing well. But that like I'm not in need of that and I'm functioning and I'm doing well and you know, I'll always have anxiety because of that event. For 

Jan: sure. Your nervous system was on way alert. Yeah. That's called a threat response.

Yeah, it's going over the top and it's part of it. 

Patti: It's a part of it. And I will say, and we were starting to talk about this a little bit in the beginning. Um. You know, I was in this little town, um, on the outskirts of Chicago was where I grew up, and so when this came out mm-hmm. It was the big thing that came out in this little town and.

You know, I will say this for my mother is that she, you know, really struggled with that whole thing, right? And, and it happening and, and all of that. But she went to the library, the local little library and talked about it publicly. And we were shunned from my father's family because of that, um, because it was their town essentially, or they, that wasn't their town, but around us.

Um, around them. And so, but she talked about this and said, if this is happening in my home, it could be happening in yours. And what that did was. It really turned that little town upside down. It really Oh, bet. It, it really brought to light. And then we're talking, this at this point is the late eighties, early nineties.

Jan: Mm-hmm. And 

Patti: people still aren't talking about that stuff. Then. There's no internet, there's no, there's none of that. And so people are still not talking fully about sexual abuse in that way. And my mother did, and she did speak about that openly. And years later there was. Somebody, um, that I grew up with had reached out and said that they noticed certain behaviors that they had seen in me, but they didn't know, of course, but afterwards, in retrospect, they were like, oh, these behaviors that I was exhibiting, they saw on a friend of theirs and therefore told a teacher.

And it turned out that that person was being sexually abused. And so, yeah. Signs that did created awareness there. Signs. Mm-hmm. It created awareness in that time because there are signs and, and, and quite honestly, I was flabbergasted at some of the things, and, and this is very vulnerable for me to say, but I was masturbating in class when I was like mm-hmm.

In second or third grade. Mm-hmm. Because I didn't know any better and my body was activated and all these things. But how did a teacher not see? Because they saw that. I know. They saw it. Yes. How did a teacher not see that as a red flag? 

Jan: Well, see this is, this is part of our education system. Yes. That back in those days, and it's not only been, it's only been in the last 10 years where we call it trauma informed.

Is that teachers are getting more training Yeah. About spotting things like that. Because before it was like, every run grows up in a suburb of Chicago, a normal life, and your father works and mother takes care of the kid, you know, and they're all in that literally fantasy and, and, you know, all kinds of things are happening in a family system.

I mean, yeah. In my family system, everybody thought my, my household was totally perfect and it wasn't, you know? Right. And so, so much of that goes on. And so it was good for your mom doing that, but I guess it, uh, did it then alienate her from the whole community when she spoke? 

Patti: No. The community ral, the community supported her very well.

The community supported all of us and like we would not have survived that event without that community. The neighbors that came together, a teacher who, to this day I still talk to sometimes. Nice. Who was my art teacher, and she would let me. Hit in her room when I couldn't handle going to class in the middle of everything 'cause it was just too much for me.

And she came and saw me in the hospital. Neighbors came and saw me in the hospital. That's where I learned to shuffle cards and like, you know, they really showed up. They came together and painted my bedroom while I was in the hospital so that when I got out it looked like a different space and they refurnished it so that it didn't seem like the same place.

That I, you know, they really did of, that's my father's family. Didn't enjoy that. You know, hearing about her, talk about that. But the rest of the community was really supportive, um mm-hmm. Of that. And so I'll always remember that and, and the way that they showed up and, you know, I thought that was just really beautiful.

Jan: That's great. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, do you know, I mean, so we were talking about resources mm-hmm. About, you know, groups. I guess they're, I don't even know what groups actually deal with that. Yeah. I mean, you know, 

Patti: the nice thing is there's the internet now. 

Jan: Yes. There's love addiction groups. There's, you know, and I'm certain some of that may get mixed in there.

There's sex addiction. Mm-hmm. And there's sex, uh, and love addiction groups. Um, and those are more classically run like AA is. Right. But there's resources that have to be, uh, and you can find. And books and tons of books. So, and therapists that specialize in this kind of thing? 

Patti: Absolutely. Yeah. And there's a lot of, you know, I found there's some, a group called, it's like an online chat room called In the Rooms that is a really great kind of 24 7 chat group, and it's like old style chat group feeling of like, you know, the, the mid to late nineties of a OL chat rooms kind of when they first came out.

But it's that feel of like, they're. Their rooms designed like, I think I was in one for anxiety for a while, but they have those for people who have been abused. Um, but I would say, you know, if you want community around that, try a group and maybe a group is where you're at. And it's okay to feel victim victimized if you're just now, because that's the other piece.

Some people don't remember that they were sexually abused until they're an adult. Right? So they still have to process all of that. I got to process it when I was very little. But if you're just starting now and, and realizing that this happened to you, then it's okay to be in that victim, I think. Mm-hmm.

And, and you might need to be around other people who are feeling that and mm-hmm. You know, I had to at some point do some, some sort of work with myself where I sat down with a picture of me as a little girl smiling and I'd. Pained me to see pictures of me smiling because I knew what was behind that and what you were hiding.

Jan: Mm-hmm. And I 

Patti: just had this moment where I sat with this picture and it, I did this meditation and, and I talked to her and, mm-hmm. Just said all of these beautiful things and how much I held her and understood her and loved her and that I'm here for her now and I'm here as an adult to protect her and all these things and like that's very experiential.

That's great. It was incredible. And at the end I looked at it and I swear to everything. I saw her smile get bigger. It was this, it was such an experience for me. So there are really just. Beautiful, powerful things you can do to support yourself and, and stop and, and respect the fact that, mm-hmm. This happened and that sucks.

It is. It is an awful, awful thing to have happened. It's, and feel sorry for yourself for a moment and give yourself that love that you didn't get in that protection. And the best part is you now get to be the person to protect you. Yes. In the way that you maybe never were. And Eddie, so be. 

Jan: You, you sound like you're describing the workshops that we do.

That's why I love doing them, so that's why I love babysitting them and hanging out on them so much. Yeah. 'cause I'm saying, you know, we talk to the different parts and tell 'em that you love them and that you're showing up to protect them. And we also do gestalt work and, and work with the parent and give back to the parent how they didn't protect you and how angry you have a right to be angry.

So I'm just, yeah. I feel like you, it's true. Maybe you've been listening in, but yeah, it, it's, that's what I'm saying, experiential work really helps. It does. And that little precious girl who was victimized and wasn't protected, you know, being able to look at her and tell her how beautiful she is and how wonderful she is, and it was never her fault.

And eventually some of that gets in and you can hold her with a lot of compassion and care, self care. So, 

Patti: yeah. That's great. Yeah, so I think, you know, there's a book I have to, I'll, I'll put the name of it in the resources 'cause I can't remember it right now. But it is when I got recently, um, as well about sexual abuse, childhood sexual abuse and, and I think it doesn't hurt to read those things.

And I think making sure that you find a therapist that, here's the other important thing, and I've mentioned this before as well, but like making sure you have a therapist who isn't a new therapist. When you have that kind of deep trauma, yes, I call them baby therapists for lack of a better term, but like make sure you have somebody who's been practicing for at least 10 years and has, right, and.

Jan: Let me just say an and there, and they have to be, they have to know about, um, childhood, developmental and relational trauma. Yes. They need to have a specialty there and know really where you're looking at the past so you can understand the future and work with it. So yeah, that not every therapist gets that.

I'm trying. Right. 

Patti: Yeah. It's really, yeah. And I've had, I've had really crappy therapists that I'm like, I'm literally sitting here and we're just talking about my day and I'm getting nothing. And I've had some that. Have changed my life and the one I'm with Right. Great. Now is is really phenomenal and we're doing that.

That's awesome. The same as with, you know, um, anxiety and stuff we're, we did a whole process of a RT, the Yep. Accelerated response therapy. Is that it? Re resolution therapy resolution. Accelerated resolution therapy. Mm-hmm. Um, and we did that around my abuse and where essentially I pictured it, and it didn't have to be in detail, but it was just like, like a passing movie kind of of it.

Mm-hmm. And as we did this, it was kind of this process and. You know it, it's the same as like the eye movement, except she's using her hands. Yeah. It's like the MDR of her hand. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. Or brain spotting. Mm-hmm. Right. 

Patti: Very same. Similar. And at the end, when I then went to think about the event, I don't see the detail that I used to be able to see because again, it happened so long that it's, I remember very vividly it was like there's a frosted glass in front of it or something.

Mm-hmm. And so I couldn't see it fully, and I didn't get triggered as much. Somebody can talk about something and I don't feel kind of the deep triggers and so. There's a lot of really powerful trauma work and, and I will say, and I'm, and I'm giving a plug for, um, Hawkeye because mm-hmm. I, I, the healing our core issues institute that Jan runs, um, with her partner Rick, and.

Part of that work, uh, I get to sit in on these workshops that, um, of train of therapists being trained to do these modalities. It is, it's why I love it, because it's, it's work that I think is so powerful and is so needed and I can see the power in it and not just watching these videos of examples of people using it, but just how you talk about it and, and the way that you describe it and, and, and the.

The way that you talk about reparenting yourself and identifying these parts and, and it is trauma work that I think is. Gorgeous and I think is so powerful and so important. So I highly recommend looking into that as well. Thank you. And 

Jan: if you want an intro to it, you can check out my book, which, uh, is gonna be republished in about a week.

And, um, that should be in the reference, the, uh, resources page. So, yeah. And what's the name of your book, Jim? Uh, gifts from a Challenging Childhood. That's right, yeah. Healing the Legacy of Childhood Trauma. That's what it's about. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So there's so much help. And this is the legacy. Yeah. It is a legacy.

And that's, that's the toughest part about this whole thing, is that it keeps getting passed down from one generation to the next generation until someone turns and decides to stop it and to change it and do the work for it. Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. And, and yeah. And I wanna say one more thing here on this, because this is something also recently that I never spoke about that I just was dealing with in therapy before the mother piece.

So what you're dealing with before that. Was that one thing my father, my glorious father said to me before he went to prison was. That, you know, it had happened to him. And he said to me, I sure hope you don't do the same thing that I've done. Mm-hmm. Or I hope you, you know, something like that. But he said, he said it in an icky way of like, you're probably gonna be like me.

Um, and so I internalized that my whole life and I was afraid to be around children. I was afraid 

Jan: that 

Patti: if I looked at my. And my niece or nephew for too long, somebody was gonna think, oh, she's thinking these thoughts about, you know, all of these things that were happening in my head and like, I've been waiting as if I'm a ticking time bomb and that one day I am suddenly gonna look at children in this way.

But I, I haven't, and it doesn't mean just because it's happened to you that you're going to do that. No. You're going to be that like. There it is a choice that you make. And to be fair, like it's never been something that's even crossed my mind as like a, like I've never been interested in that, but that fear has been a part of me.

Mm-hmm. And I know that my brother has experienced that fear, even though that wasn't done to him, but it was his father who did it. You know, like mm-hmm. And so just know that just because you've experienced this doesn't mean you are going to pass that legacy on. It doesn't, you get to make a choice. You get to take care of yourself, you get to heal yourself.

You get to stop. The same as with any kind of neglect, abuse, trauma, you get to stop it from moving forward and do that 

Jan: work. And this, the most important thing though, is to notice that if you're struggling with some of this. Help. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's the other thing too is that, you know, if you are having those thoughts and have not done something, go get help.

Get help, get help. It doesn't mean you have to go that 

Jan: route. Like don't, it doesn't mean you know you're a bad person. Right. You know, we, it's, it means something happened to you that you still need to work with and struggle with. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to be like demonized or anything like that.

That exactly. Yeah, you can heal. We ultimately, 

Jan: you know, we always teach the therapist that and, and individuals in my practice, I teach them the fact that. They were a victim and now they're not a victim and they can ch make choices. And choices are really important. And if you start having tendencies where you feel like stuff is outta control, then you need to really reach out and get help.

And we're all human, we're all like bozos on the same bus here, you know? Yeah. It doesn't matter. And, and being human, just like your mom and your dad were human. Mm-hmm. And they really fell down on the job. Correct. And they were very untreated. Correct. And so we're my parents, but it just showed up different way.

So, okay. This, this is the plug for, uh, doing trauma work, so yeah. Yeah, 

Patti: do the work. It's hard. Sometimes it's tiring. Sometimes I sit and I cry and I'm like, why? Why? Do I have to do this forever? But you know what, I'd rather do that forever and learn to be at peace and happy and move forward. Yes. Than live in some other dark place in myself.

So it's just, you know, that's great. It's okay to feel sorry sometimes for yourself. Feel sorry, have your pity party and then move on, you know? 

Jan: Well, Patty, thank you so much for being vulnerable. First of all, and for sharing your story. And uh, I really appreciate your honesty and your being authentic. So 

Patti: yeah, thank you.

And I'm excited to share some resources and um, yeah, to everybody out there, just hang in there, do the work and you're gonna be okay. It's great. Thanks. 

Jan: Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you 

like what you've heard, please share 

Patti: it with friends, subscribe and leave a review. And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice.

If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional. 

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest. 

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. You can find links to both of those over at our website at things my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes.

Thank you.