So... We’re All Gonna Die, Right?

In this episode, we go there—into the deep, raw, and very real territory of death and dying. Sounds jolly, right? But seriously, it's the conversation no one prepared us for, and that’s exactly why we’re having it.

We're getting honest about:

• Sudden loss and the trauma of unexpected death
• The weird things our brains do when we first hear someone’s gone
• The difference between grief and the act of dying
• End-of-life planning, medical aid in dying, and making peace with our mortality
• And yes… the “Oh No” book, because someone’s gotta know where the passwords are

We laugh, we share personal stories, and we hope this episode helps you feel a little more seen and a little less alone.

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

Apply to be a guest here.

Stay updated on new episodes here.

*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, 

Patti: the podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body. Aging and all the wait, what moments of womanhood? 

Patti: And I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me? 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two, outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman 

Patti: from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning 

Jan: to mental health perimenopause.

In scalp cancer. Yes. Really 

Patti: nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. 

Patti: Hi Dan. 

Jan: Hey there, Patty. Good to see you. 

Patti: Good to see you. How are you? 

Jan: Well, I'm doing pretty good. I, I, Christmas is coming and, you know, things are getting a little hectic around here with everybody and I see your trees set, uh, set up.

Oh, nice. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. And so it's, you know, a little hectic. How about you? 

Patti: Yeah, good. I mean, I'm feeling pretty good. This will, this will air after Christmas, um, but where we're, we're recording ahead so that we can take Christmas time off. Um, and yeah, I'm good. I've got my place, I like decorating for Christmas and so I've done that already and yeah, I feel good.

I'm gonna take some time off at the end of the year, so I'm happy. That's good. Yeah. 

Jan: Deserve that. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Also, you know, the topic we're gonna talk about today, uh, is a little incongruent with, uh, kind of the not so 

Patti: jolly, 

Jan: it's not so jolly, it's not so jolly and, uh, you know, there's no Santa Claus to make anything better, but, um, talking about death and dying, I think is the tough part.

Patti: Yeah, yeah. 

Jan: So, 

Patti: yeah, we're, and 

Jan: you know, I was just thinking, I just said dying. When I think about dying, I think that's the more painful to see. 

Patti: Mm, 

Jan: is knowing people who are on the journey to end their lives, meaning have cancer or they have, uh, Alzheimer's and you know, that there's fading away and, um, and what that is or friends that accidentally all of a sudden happen.

And it, it's the watching it happening is what is, I think, most difficult for me, not the idea that they're gone. So, right, 

Patti: right. And, and we're gonna do a separate episode also about grief. So talking about the when they're gone and how we experience grief and 

Jan: Right. 

Patti: You know, I think that when, at least for me, you know, when I was younger, and I think for a lot of us, a, unless we experience like somebody in our life, dying early death isn't something that we think a lot about unless, I mean, some people te tend to be more philosophical.

Minded than others. And so maybe they think about death at, at earlier or maybe a beloved pet dies or something like that. But, but for most of us, we aren't spending a ton of time, I think, when we're younger, thinking about death and contemplating unless we have tragedy and trauma. Um, 

Jan: I was just thinking, you know, that's what's interesting is that things my mother forgot to mention, uh, when anyone died in our family, my grandparents.

Patti: Mm-hmm. 

Jan: Um, let's see. Uh. My, my, actually it was my brother who died when he was first born, uh, my first brother. And, um, but no one ever really talked to me about any of that going on in the family. You know, an uncle dying or you know, a cousin dying. And everyone was just like, oh, they passed away. And that was it.

And I think that's the tough part is that, uh, you know, what could have been done too. Kind of be more available or connected to your kid. Yeah. Talking to you about death and questions like that rather than just like, oh, they died and you know, funeral. 

Patti: What did that, what did that mean to you then? Like, so, you know, when you were at a young age and they were saying things like they passed away.

Like were you able to, like what level were you comprehending of like, what does that actually mean to have somebody pass away? 

Jan: Well, you know, it's something that just jumped into my mind right now, which is interesting is that the, uh, when I was in elementary school and we're going way back 

Patti: Hmm. 

Jan: And the principal of the school died and my parents took me to the wake and I was a mess.

I was, I had nightmares. I couldn't handle it. It was very difficult for me. And, um, I still remember that is kind of a trauma that I had. Yeah. And, um, and I don't really know that they were really all, all that present for me talking to me about it because it was just so weird for me at, at probably like eight or six or seven, eight seeing a dead body.

Uh, it 

Patti: was an open casket. 

Jan: Oh yes. 

Patti: Oh my goodness. 

Jan: I know. Isn't that kinda weird? Wonder what? 

Patti: Yes. Yes. 

Jan: What were they thinking? 

Patti: Oh wow. 

Jan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Wow. 

Jan: And you know, I think, I mean that brings up a real good point is that, so what, at what age if you have young children and someone dies in the family, like, and grandpa, grandma.

A cousin, uh, a brother, you know, your parents' brother or sister, and you know, how is that managed and how much do you, uh, make available to that kid? Or maybe you keep 'em away from all of that, which probably would've been my case, should have had happened. 

Patti: Yeah. Well, I, I would imagine, and again, I'm not a, a parent, um, by choice, but I would imagine.

Sitting down and saying, Hey, you know, your principal has passed away. This is what this means. We are not going to go look at his lifeless body. 

Jan: Right. 

Patti: Um, when you can't understand that, I mean, I think I saw my first dead body when I was, I had to have been in my early teens because it was after we moved to California and it was.

Very close friend of the family, which I didn't know super well, but it was like she was very close to my grandparents. So she was an older woman and we went to her funeral and I saw her body and it was very weird for me. I had never seen a, a body before and I just remember thinking how, like I kept watching.

For her to breathe knowing that she wasn't gonna breathe because there was something, there was, it was a novelty, right? To look at a body that's just still and not breathing. And it was very weird, but it didn't feel traumatic to me or anything. But I was in my early teens, so I was in a different place.

I mean, I think as opposed to a child, that's a very different experience because I understood what death was at that age, and there's almost that at that age too, you're like, Ooh, a dead body. Like there's, it's a, it's a little different, right? It's an experience almost of like, oh wow, this is a. As something that you're now experiencing for the first time.

But as a child, I don't imagine that you can comprehend all of that. 

Jan: I totally agree with you. I, I'm just thinking, wow, I don't know what was going on then family. But, uh, people were a little checked out. And I think that you're probably around teen years. I mean, you take, it's interesting teen years, you know, you're not even thinking of dying when you're attending.

No. You know, so looking at this kind of like objective, like, oh, this is interesting, and they're not breathing, and you're like that. You know, so it's different. Mm-hmm. And then I think, so there's too much, then there's, you know, you're not really attached or really connected to it. And then there's, like we were just talking about before we started recording is, um, at my age.

Uh, I've had a couple friends of mine who've already passed away. 

Patti: Yeah. And 

Jan: watching them go through the process of dying, uh, was extremely upsetting for me. I, I actually couldn't really visit them. Mm-hmm. Uh, it was really hard for me to be present or to want to reach out to 'em because, uh, it was, it was so much in my own face about my own mortality.

So. 

Patti: Yeah. And I think, and that's kind of right as we get older, we start to, to think about our, our own mortality. And I think, you know, when I was a teenager, right? So I had, based on our previous episodes of conversations, I've had, uh, suicidal ideation for most of my life when I was younger and into teenage years.

But I think even at that, it wasn't, uh, uh. Thinking about mortality in that way. It was just stopping pain and it wasn't thinking about death. You know what I mean? Like it was such a different thing coming at, at it from that way, stopping 

Jan: the pain. Right, 

Patti: right. Because you're not thinking necessarily like you wanna die, but it's, it's stopping what's happening.

It's not about, so you're not really, I think for me at least, I wasn't facing death. I wasn't thinking about death. I was thinking about life and, and not wanting that anymore. And so. But it's not until I've been older myself that I've thought more about about death and mortality. One of my very best friends, she died tragically.

She was, uh, hit by a car, a drunk driver. She was walking home from work. She loved, she was well known to walk everywhere for miles and miles. She loved to walk and she was walking home at night and, uh, the guy hit her. He was going 50 miles an hour. Um, and so that was almost six years ago. And, uh. And she died.

It sounds like she died pretty instantly. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Um, because he stopped, he didn't do a hit and run, which gave him, I guess, an, an ounce of credit for that and being there. But he called it in and said, you know, he hit somebody who he believes is deceased. So that suggested that she died pretty instantly.

But until then, my grandparents had died, but I wasn't, you know, they were older. I wasn't, my grandfather was sick. My grandmother had a massive stroke and then she was kind of a vegetable, like it was just different. Mm-hmm. But my friend dying, that was. Like, holy shit. She, oh, she's two days older than me.

And so, and you 

Jan: were close to her, I mean, 

Patti: would you? Very close. I've, I knew her 

Jan: and you'd see her like maybe once a week or every couple 

Patti: of, well, so we, we didn't live in the same place anymore, but I, we had met when I was in middle school, and so we were. 

Jan: Attached. Right. 

Patti: Very, very close. And like when I moved from California out to Texas, which was a really big thing in my life and very hard, she flew, she had moved up to Portland and so she'd flown down to Portland or to San Francisco and drove with me here.

And like, you know, she was that kind of friend and we would talk regularly and things like that. And so it was very, it was very shocking. Right. And, and suddenly it was like she was 39 and. It was this moment of like, she was two days older than me. Like that, it's so easy. It's so to be gone. Like she was just walking home.

And so that, and that, you know, like I said, grief is a whole different conversation, which we'll talk about next time and what that grief process was like for me. But, but there is where death was. Mm-hmm. And that like. It can happen just like that and, and 

Jan: be instantaneous. Or 

Patti: instantaneous. A 

Jan: long, 

Patti: long, it could be long.

Yeah. 

Jan: A friend of mine who had pancreatic cancer, another friend had colon cancer and it's just whittled. That, you know, they whittle away and they get thin and they get frail. And just watching that just, I, I'm, I don't, I have never been great. Yeah. Being around that. 'cause it just, I think it just is very triggering for me and I feel so helpless, like, doing anything about it.

So I'd rather pretend like it's not happening, but, you know. Interesting. It's interesting, so your friend, but it has a lot to do with how close you are to someone. Like, you know, I mean, I lost both of my parents. And, um, I had grown and li lived in New England here, and they were all in the Midwest and Southwest, so I didn't see them all that often.

And so when it happened that they were dying. You know, I just, I wasn't there. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And, you know, and, and that's kind of how my family system is, is that we don't really show up all that much for each other. We're not an Irish Catholic family. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: You know, we're, we're much more kind of like, oh, uh, that's too bad.

That happened. And, and so, uh, so I don't have a lot of experience watching my parents die, but I do have more, which has really impacted me as friends or my brother. Who his wife, um, was hit by a car and it was a, a cop that was off duty and he was drunk. 

Patti: Oh my gosh. And she 

Jan: died. Instantly. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: She, she was hit and um, and that was in New Jersey.

And I remember being at their house, uh, you know, spending time with them. And then, you know, heard like a month later that, you know, she had been hit by a car. So, yeah. Now I didn't have a, a lot of connection to her, but I can, Ima my brother had probably sent him off for about two years. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. And he couldn't say goodbye to her. See, this is another thing that people talk about. Are you gonna say that? Is being there when someone dies, that you really know they're gone? And I have never done that. 

Patti: Yeah. Well, you know, I, I was there when my grandfather died and like I saw. His, he was probably the second dead body I saw, and he was in the hospital room like, but he said goodbye.

We all knew he was dying. Mm-hmm. It was there, it was time. And we were all sort of like even, okay, let's, let's go. You know, like, for lack of a better word, like he was done. Um, but with her, you know, she was. It, and it happened in 2020, so it was right in the middle of COVID. 

Jan: Oh dear. 

Patti: Um, so I couldn't go, uh, there were where all of her family had moved to Portland as well.

And so one day I would like to go to Portland and, and even though it sounds more, but, but go to the place where she died. Um, and, but yeah, there was a lot of that, and I think this plays into grief as well, but a lot of guilt. And I wish I was there and maybe I wasn't as good of a friend as I could have been towards the end of her life, or like all of those things.

And it is, it, it, there is a lack of closure that happens there. And that was my first real experience with grief was with that like grief I had never experienced before. Mm-hmm. Um, but again, that, that kind of mortality. And I had a neighbor who was, who had become my friend, he lived like, we shared a fire escape at the apartment.

I lived in San Francisco for seven years and he was murdered, um, by somebody who lived with him at the hou. Like it was a whole thing. It was, you know, I lived in not the greatest neighborhood and they were all kind of in and out of prison and stuff, but like, he was a good guy, you know, he kept getting messed up in the wrong crowds and stuff, but he was shot.

And killed. And that was before my friend passed away. So that was also kind of the, that was the first real person that was like close to me that I was just like, whoa. And like there's a weird hole, you know, that like, I don't know how to explain it. Of just like be, especially when you don't say goodbye and you don't have that like you.

You're just like, but it doesn't make, like your brain can't quite wrap around it, like Right. 

Jan: The finality of it. 

Patti: In both instances, it was really fascinating. I had this thing that happened, which was like, in retrospect, I was able to acknowledge that my brain wasn't able to immediately process the information.

So for my neighbor, I read it in the, on the news in a, in an article, and it said his name and I knew his name, but I was like. I read it and I kept reading it, but my brain was like, that can't be that. So his brother like, and it just was not allowing it to be him until it finally was like him. And then when my friend Yulia died, her sister messaged me and said, Yulia got hit by a car last night, walking home from work.

She did not survive. But I skipped over the, she did not survive. My brain didn't read that. And so I was like, oh, she's in the hospital. Oh, okay. I need to 

Jan: go see her again. 

Patti: What's going on? What's happening? Like all this stuff. And it wasn't until I read it again that it was like she did not survive. And at that point I kind of collapsed and was like, what?

But both times my brain was just, it was so. Because it's so sudden that I wasn't able to process that information initially. It was so fascinating. 

Jan: It's almost like shock, you know? Yeah, yeah. Shock and and shock. That's what makes it hard to process things, and I was just thinking the same thing. Is it, it makes a big difference if you can have closure.

Yeah. So when people are dying, you can have clo like, actually, I realized with my mother. But she didn't know who I was in the end. But, uh, I went and saw her and said goodbye to her and, you know, kind of like did my, made my amends with her. Yeah. And then she died like a couple months later. But I mean, I think that the saying goodbye makes a big difference.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: With the slower, you know, like, um, diseases and things that take people a while. Sudden death. I mean, I think that's hard for anyone to really grow up in their brain. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I can imagine just how hard that was for you. Like, what, what, are you sure she's gone? Like, maybe, maybe she's still around, 

Patti: right?

Yeah. Because you can't like, yeah, you don't get that. Closure. You don't get the finality. And so it's hard for your brain to, to wrap around that. And I think what's interesting too is now, right, so I'm in my mid forties and what I'm seeing is the same as I'm sure you've experienced and are experiencing is like people you grew up watching, right?

So talking about celebrity and like you're watching celebrities die and people that you've grown up watching and, and while kind of on the surface you're like, oh wow, that's so crazy. But like. After a while, you, you really start to be like, holy crap, that's a lot of people that keep dying, that, that you've looked up to.

And, and there's something about that for me that makes me stop and go, oh boy. Like, all righty. You know, because, and some of them are younger, but you realize that you're starting to hit those ages where, you know, I'm at the age where people start having heart attacks. Yeah. And sometimes they're fatal and sometimes like.

It's, it's really the older you get, the more, I think you're just faced more and more with that because there's more of that loss, there's more of that death that, that happens all around you. When you're young, you very, it's a, it's a such a rare thing for you, for most people to know somebody who's died.

Jan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking of when you said movie stars, Diane Keaton, when she just died, you know, like she was 79 and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, that's only, you know, 7, 8, 9, that's seven years from now. From for me. Yeah. And I'm what, and so it does, I mean. So I, I think though, that's what happens when you get into the sixties and seventies is you, you start seeing more people.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Doing well and, and dying. Um, because I had a, a old boyfriend who I was with him for a couple years and. He, uh, he broke, we broke up, and then he called me and we were trying to kind of reconnect our relationship. Friendship. Yeah. And I remember him calling him one time. I said, you know, Hey John, what's happening?

And, and it was his girlfriend then, and she said he died from a stroke at 50. And I'm like, whoa. And all of a sudden I'm like, he's gone. And I mean, I just, I think that's what's so hard about the whole thing is like you said, sudden death. It's hard to really, it's a shock. Yeah. And you can't really tell it's final because of how immediate is.

But when it's a long. Unfortunate drawn out death that you have time to say goodbye to people and that easier. Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. And I think it's hard too, the long, those long deaths though are hard as well. Like I think about my, my mother, right? Because she's been having for. It has been years and years now that she just has one ailment after another, after another.

And she's, you know, she's a similar age to you and she's an assisted living and can barely walk. And you know, she struggles so much and most of it is external for her. But there's this thing for me where I'm just. I, I'm just sort of like, it's gotta be any day that anything can happen. Like she could live another 10 years and it could just be external, but with so much just continuing to kind of fail and stuff, I just feel like I'm sort of always prepared for a phone call to tell me that she has died.

Right. 

Jan: Right. 

Patti: And it's, and it's a weird place to exist because you're just sort of like. At any moment is this it? Is this the last moment I, when I say goodbye today, when I leave, this could be it. And I just don't know. And when they, the, the place calls me for whatever reason, my heart drops every time because I'm like, is this that call?

And so there's that piece of it too, where you're just sort of watching death constantly and again. Maybe it'll be 10 years and maybe it'll be two months and you just don't know. And I think that's very hard as well when you sort of live in a gray area almost. Right. Which I think is similar with Alzheimer's because Alzheimer's is, is a disease that will kill you, but, 

Jan: but 

Patti: it takes time and you don't know how long it will be before that takes that.

My grandmother, my paternal grandmother died of Alzheimer's and she lived a very long time with that. 

Jan: Boy, all I gotta say is someone get me a pillow. That's all. I mean, I'm sorry. 

Patti: No, I mean, my mom says the same thing. We have a joke. She's like, it's almost time for the pillow patty. Sometimes she'll say 

Jan: it.

I know. I tell you. I mean, I, I'm right there with her because it's like, I don't, I mean, now I'm talking about my own death, but I don't wanna be a burden for my sons. I don't want them having to do some of the things that you're doing with your mom. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And thinking that they have to be around me to take care of me.

I'm thinking that is absolutely not what I want. So I always, I always have a friend of mine, we have this packed about the pillow, so, and I'm like, 

Patti: yeah, 

Jan: so, uh, yeah, that is kind of crazy thought. But anyway, 

Patti: but I don't think it's a crazy thought. I mean, I think we're having this conversation about death and I think that that's a real conversation that.

You know how that's not something that my mother ever talked about when we were younger. Now, now, of course, it's something that we talk about and we have those conversations. She and I and you know, and about, you know, she's like, never let me be a vegetable patty. Never let me be a vegetable. Like if that, that's the time.

Like she, 

Jan: she that in writing. 

Patti: Yes, yes, 

Jan: yes. Does. Okay. 

Patti: Oh yeah. We've we're, we've taken care of all of that stuff, and she is been very clear with her wishes, and she's like, I don't wanna be sure, because her mother was, when she, her mother had a massive stroke and they, I think she, she lived for about two more months, but she was just, wasn't there, you know, like I'm the one that found her and she like.

Couldn't she like saw through me, you know, like she just was already gone by the time I found her. Mm-hmm. And so she never came back from that. Every once in a while it looked like she was maybe responsive, but I. She didn't want to be here. She had stopped taking her medication. And so that was a choice she had made.

It was not long after my grandfather passed and so she was pretty vegetable wise for, for a lot. I mean this is probably a not nice way to say it, but, so she was not able to move or function Yeah. Um, for a couple months and then my mom and her sister. Let her go. And so that's something for my mom is she's just like, I, I don't ever want that.

Right. They'll 

Jan: give you two months. Just let me go. 

Patti: Yeah. Just that's not, she's, she's always like, make sure I'm not coming back. But then once you know, for sure I'm not coming back, then let me go. You 

Jan: know? 

Patti: But 

Jan: I think those are important. Well, that's thing that we should say here is, uh, is that then for the people who are.

In that journey of ending their life, uh, that to get it together, uh, with, in writing in a will get things straight to make sure that you make clear the people that are caretakers around you. I think the caretakers changed. Now they're calling them care. Something, I can't remember. Um, there's a new name for people who are taking care of.

People who are, they're partners that are dying. I can't remember anyway, but I, I think that's a smart thing to do. I mean, for all, all of us, you know? Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. And 

Jan: I am waiting for, right Patty, and I know Texas will not be like this, but Massachusetts has already brought it up to be voted on. It didn't make it, but I'm hoping it happens.

Is the right to. To have to kill yourself to, 

Patti: I wanted, yeah, I wanted to talk about that actually, because that was something like my brother and I have talked about as well of just like, you know, and with my mother, like, not like my brother and I are, you know, let me be clear. Um, but like that idea of.

We're allowed to give our animals dignity and allow them to go when they're terminal, right? When there's nothing more to be at peace. But we don't allow that for ourselves. And I know that that's a very controversial thing, and I think that people, when they talk about, um. I can't remember the actual term for it, um, for it's, you know, assisted suicide, but it's called something else.

I think that when people hear about that topic and they think about it, they think, oh, well, you shouldn't be allowed to just kill yourself. But the thing is, is it's, we're talking about people who are terminal. We're talking about people who are their life quality. Is so poor and they're in the midst of dying, that they should be allowed to let their lives go with dignity and grace and not horrifically suffer, especially those with cancer and things like that.

And. Um, I'm glad that there are states like Washington and Oregon. Right? 

Jan: I was, I was just think that the, the states that have it 

Patti: mm-hmm. 

Jan: And that's where you have to write in writing. Yes. Clear Oh yeah. Of sound mind that you're saying that 

Patti: Yeah. You have to, I believe you have to see a psychologist, like you have to go through things to, to be clear.

So it's not just a impulsive decision. Um. But I think that that's, that's fair to, to allow somebody to have that peace to, to leave of their will. 

Jan: Well, I just looked up what you were talking about. They call it maid medical aid and dying. Is that what you were looking for the term? 

Patti: It's something else different that I know, but, 

Jan: and there's pad physician, physician assistant, suicide 

Patti: assisted 

suicide.

Patti: That's I 

Jan: was thinking's, um, or physician assisted death and dying pad. PAD. So, 

yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Uh, but they're coming up with a lot of, you know, information about those things, and I think it's, yeah. Becoming a bigger deal because of our technology and our medicine that keeps people alive forever. And that is not always a good thing.

Patti: Well, in cancer, right? I mean, the amount of growth that cancer has has spread throughout our communities and the people who die from cancer is much greater. And that is a very painful way to to go. And so when you know that you're beyond that. I feel like there should be that opportunity, but there are really only, I don't know how many states anymore, but I know when it was first starting, I was in California and there was like Oregon and, and Washington where were two of the states.

Um, I think Oregon was one of the first, um, to have physician assistant, because you remember way back in the day, like Jack of Work in and there was a whole thing about him, right? Yeah. Um, but he was doing exactly that. I mean, it's death with dignity. Um. And so I do think that there's, there's something powerful in that and I think that those are conversations.

I think looking at resources and thinking about it as like, make sure you have those conversations with people you love, no matter your age. And I don't think it has to be more, but it can be loving and you know, like, Hey, just so you know, this is what I want to happen when I die. Mm-hmm. I wanna be cremated.

I don't wanna like just cremate me and. Chuck me off the side of a cliff in California. There's a place I like in San Francisco called Lands End. That's where I want to go by way, like my little ashes, like, you know, I don't want anything big and fancy and expensive. Keep it simple, you know, like, but let your wishes be known and talk about those things with people because you don't ever know when you know.

Jan: There's a being Mortal actually is a very good book, and I just found it again, I was remembering it being mortal. It's by, um, a doctor whose name's Aul, a Gwane, uh, and what medicine and what matters in the end. And this is another big topic that we really probably should at least note. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Um, and, and say.

Is because medicine can keep people alive, you know, on machines and everything. Forever. This whole book Being Mortal, he talks about the whole idea of his own father having, um, some kind of a tumor in his brain. And they said that if they were to do surgery to get rid of it, then the recovery rate would be this, and then he wouldn't be able to walk.

And you know, it has all these other things. But we can do this. We can keep you alive longer. And, and he said his father talked to him and they decided to let nature happen and he was gonna, and, and he passed away without any intervention. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And I think that that's, that's, that's a really good book to really talk about it, that whole dilemma in the society today, because our medicine is so far advanced.

Yeah, we can really keep people alive and it really, should we be doing that and, and how do you call that? So, 

Patti: right. Well, and I think when we look at that too is like, what is the quality of quality of life of somebody who, right. Yes. Because in some cases, like maybe, you know, a 15-year-old or somebody who's young, that they're going to be able to have a long, strong quality of life.

Oh my goodness. Yes. But for somebody who's 80, 90 years old, who. Is going to go through whatever series of operations or whatever it may be, and they're going to be reliant on machines and a ton of medication and all of these side effects is, you can choose that if you want. That is your choice. However.

You know, it is something to think about and what does that look like for you and your quality of life. And you know, I think one of the things that's important to talk about when we talk about death is how do you make peace with death, and how do you make peace with the fact that you will die? I feel like one of the things for me is because I've had suicidal ideations for so long in my life, which I don't have now and I haven't had for a long time, but.

I sort of had reached this point where I'm like, you know what? I've, I've lived an okay life. Like I'm pretty okay. I've enjoyed my life, I've had fun. I'm proud of the things I've done. Like I am at a point where I'm not necessarily afraid of it. I'm not like, yeah, let's go death, come on. But I'm also like, you know, I, I think that with Yulia dying for me was one of those things of like, if I go do I, am I at peace with what I've lived and how I've lived?

Mm-hmm. And who I am, and 

Jan: I like that. And 

Patti: I think 

Jan: that's important. And I think that that's, I think that's really important. And I, I kind of think about the same thing myself and, and, uh, like, uh, writing the book that just was revised and published is like, even though that took like so much time and money, for me, it's like my statement of trying to, if I leave this world, it's something I'm gonna leave behind and hopefully it'll be helpful to others, you know?

Yeah. So it's kinda like. Um, really looking back and, and realizing like, okay, I've had a, you know, a good life and, um, if this is the time for me to go, can I go? And actually, I'm just looking at his book on Amazon here and it's all about exploring, um, mortality and end of life and, and questions asking yourself.

So I love that that would actually be a good resource for people. Who are listening now is, is to look at that book. So yeah, 

Patti: I'll put it in the show notes for sure. I think, I think that's great. I think that's a great place to kind of wrap up and, and to think about those resources is that, you know, that's the one of the thing, a side of change that's a constant right?

Is that we're all going to die. Yes. And. Everybody we love is going to die, whether it's before or after us. I mean, it's going to happen. And so what can we do to find whatever peace that is, whether that's religion for you, whether that's writing a book or both, or like whatever that looks like for you.

Like whatever you can find for yourself to make peace with the mortality that we all experience and, and, yeah. Be whatever, happy and loving and just live your life however you can because Yeah, 

Jan: yeah. 

Patti: That's the thing. 

Jan: I mean, life, life is a gift to begin with. So you know, the gift comes in and then the gift goes out, you know, so.

But I think that, you know, it's just, you know, reviewing back of what we've talked about, I think we've covered like all, uh, all different aspects of, of death and dying. Yeah. And, and just really we're all going to have to talk about that, uh, in our own lives. And for people who are in my age bracket, they should really have had some planning.

And, you know, it does change now. I'll tell you. Once I hit 65, I'm sure it was, not that it was all downhill, but it was similar to your mother. It's like one thing after another keeps going into the next thing to the next thing. Yeah. And you start going, oh my gosh, this is this how it's gonna be? And so I really, it, it naturally comes upon us.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Now I know why. Retirement's always like age 65, you know? It's true. Something starts changing. Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Interesting. Yeah. So it's good. And I think too, like I have a, a will and you know, because I want to make sure my cats are okay and I have a business. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Like, I've had to think about what happens if I die.

We talked about this recently. I know. Like I have a little binder of like, oh, oh no. Like what? Somebody needs to step in and make sure my people get paid. And you 

Jan: know, Patty? Oh, notebook. 

Patti: Oh no. 

Jan: What did you call them? What did you call it? The oh, notebook. 

Patti: Well, no, I just now, but it's called my death book, but like, you know, 

Jan: my death book.

The Oh no book. 

Patti: The, oh no book. Uh oh. Bye, Betty. 

Jan: Oh. Oh no. Oh. I mean, you do have to laugh about some of this 

Patti: stuff. Yeah. You know, what are you gonna do? Like if that's one thing we will all experience, so, you know. 

Jan: Anyway. 

Patti: Yeah. Well, thanks. Lovely chat as usual. 

Jan: Yes. And I'll see if I have any other resources that I can come up with.

But that is one of my favorite, um, books that I've read and really impacted. We made our son read that book and he's a doctor. 

Patti: Oh. 

Jan: Oh, that's smart. A doctor smart. He was in the ER room. He's an emergency room doctor, and he, during CID is when he was breaking, you know, he's just. Spending his, uh, internship and had graduated and he's, he's like, wow.

And, you know, I think, I mean, talking about that is doctors, uh, you do have to somewhat detach because of all the different people that would die on, on him and, and kind of compartmentalize it. So it doesn't really get you, but I think when it's someone you're connected to and close, it's a whole different story.

So, 

Patti: yeah. Yeah. Well next time we'll, we'll have a guest and then after that we'll talk about the grief side of death. Yeah. Which will be another, you know, whole other conversation, but whole other conversation. Yeah. We can talk about death forever. 

Jan: Right. And we have a guest coming in a, a colleague of yours.

Patti: Yeah, we do. For 

Jan: our guest. Okay, great. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. So that'll be exciting. So, well, thanks Jan. 

Jan: Thank you Patty, as always. See you later. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends, subscribe and leave a review. 

Patti: And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice.

If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional. 

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest. 

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. 

Jan: You can find links to both of those over at our website at things 

Patti: my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes.

Jan: Thank you.