The Grief of Everything

In this episode, we talk about the many faces of grief—and how it's not just about death. From heartbreak and dementia to aging bodies and old friendships, this one’s for anyone who’s had to say goodbye to something (or someone) they loved.

We get into:

• The sneaky, shapeshifting nature of grief
• What “ambiguous grief” actually means
• How grief is deeply connected to attachment
• Why we need rituals—and how they help us move through pain
• Grief triggers and how to cope
• Creating meaning from loss (even when it feels impossible)

Whether you’re in it, past it, or dreading it—this conversation will meet you where you are.

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, 

Patti: the podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author, turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body aging and all the. Wait, what moments of womanhood 

Patti: and I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me? 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two, outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman 

Patti: from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning 

Jan: to mental health perimenopause.

In scalp cancer. Yes. Really 

Patti: nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. 

Patti: Hello, Jan. 

Jan: Hey there, Patty. 

Patti: How's it going? 

Jan: Good. Are you staying warm? Is it warm down there or? 

Patti: Uh, it's chilly, but I mean, today it's gonna be like the mid sixties, but it has been like forties and fifties.

So right now it's nice. It's really nice out my doors open and I'm in a tank top. But 

Jan: you're in a tank top? 

Yeah. 

Jan: Well here it's like, uh, 30 degrees with a wind windchill factor of like, you know, 10 below zero, which unbelievable cold. Oh my 

Patti: gosh. 

Jan: And you know the good news, we haven't gotten snow here. Oh, 

Patti: I was gonna ask.

Jan: But in the Midwest they're getting hammered. Yeah. And m oh my gosh. So, so I have nothing to complain about. It's, it's, um, I'm making it through, so, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: But I know today we were just chatting about this mm-hmm. Is that we are gonna be talking about grief. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah, we've 

Jan: now that's a classic. My mother never talked about it.

Patti: No, no. It's not something that I think, well, again, sort of like, you know, this, this is, I think a really great follow up to our conversations about death because grief is what happens after death, and grief is what happens at the end of a lot of things. Um, and it's not something that I think when you hear about grief or when I've heard about grief.

I've tended to hear it most of my life in, um, in response to death specifically. Yes, 

Jan: absolutely. 

Patti: And it wasn't until I think, and even at that there wasn't really any conversation about it, but I didn't experience death when I was young, so there wasn't really a need for it, I think. But it wasn't until I was an adult that I started re realizing, oh, grief comes from relationships ending losing friendships.

Grief comes from a, the loss of a pet, which, which is death. Um, but I mean, there's so the loss of a job, you know, that you loved and that you were really connected to and thought you were gonna be in grief can come from that. There's, there's so many, um, things that, that end in change in our lives that leave us grieving.

Jan: Yeah. I mean, for me, uh, the same thing. I only associated the word grief. Like you could have grief when someone died. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And, and when I realized that, you know, and I never had really grief, I had grandparents that died and all that, but I was never attached to 'em. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And it wasn't until, of course, when I got to be an adult.

Let's see. I think the first, uh, grief for me from dying is my father. I was 26 I think, when he died. And, um, I, and because I even wasn't there when he died. 

Patti: Mm. I 

Jan: was living across the country in Boston. He was in Arizona. Uh, I had very, I was kind of detached from the whole thing. Mm-hmm. So this idea of this process, people go through grieving.

Yeah. But then now, of course, as being a therapist for 30 years and talking to people about this and working with them, realizing, and, and this is my dear friend, Laura Bleo, who we interviewed, who told me about a book called Soul Broken, which is about ambiguous grief. And that's what I think you were talking about, a broken relationship, a divorce.

Um, I think Laura was talking about it 'cause she works with partners of, uh, people of sex addicts. Mm-hmm. And when they act out or they are having affairs or things, there's this huge, for the surviving spouse, the, um, this huge amount of grief because their whole life has changed, realizing that their partner has been acting out and what's here.

Or in my case with my mom, she died from dementia and whether it was Alzheimer's or whatever, but near the end, the last six or eight months, she didn't know who anybody was. And that's a form of grieving, but you're watching it. And that's what this woman calls ambiguous grief. And so I, I wanted to ask you about when you learned from your friend, did you say, mm-hmm.

When you got, what was her name? 

Patti: Yulia. 

Jan: Yulia. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. 

Jan: And so did you grow up with her, or what was it? 

Patti: Yeah, I knew her. I met her in seventh grade. And so we were friends from that point. Um, onward. We became probably in about high school. We became very, very close and she was one of my best friends. Um, and then we stayed connected, you know, after high school.

Eventually she moved up to Portland. I went up there for her wedding. I was her witness for her wedding and, you know, all of that. Like, we were very close and we stayed connected. And when I moved here, she. Drove down from Portland or flew down from Portland and drove with me from San Francisco to Texas because it was a really big drive.

Drove with me and my cats in my car for three days and you know, and me full of anxiety. She was a champ and did most of the driving, so, so we were very close and so her death. Was very sudden, as I mentioned, she, um, she died, she got hit by a car while she was walking, and it's, it sounds like she died pretty instantly.

And so that was like you, I had had grandparents who had died and things like that. But again, like I love them. I was close to them and it hurt and you know, but it wasn't the same. It wasn't, this was a right. Grief that I didn't know before and I had never, ever experienced. And you know, I think we talked about last time on when, when it was the two of us talking about death, how my brain wasn't able to initially process the text message or the message I received saying she didn't survive, that she had died.

And I remember. As soon as it did process, I dropped to the floor. And I always thought, when I've seen people do that, I've always been like, that's so dramatic. Like that doesn't happen. But you literally, I could not stand and, and wherever I would go, sitting on the bed wasn't. Enough, like I had to be on the ground.

Like it was just so, I was so literally floored. Mm-hmm. By this news. And the fact, like, it was my first time really comprehending how a human that was so alive and she was two days older than me was gone. And that like, I was now like going to age, continue to age without her, you know, and like she should always be older than me, but now I'm older than her.

Mm-hmm. You know? And. So it was a really interesting process because not only did I have all the initial, like, I don't understand and complete shock, and, you know, my sister-in-law came. 

Jan: Is that really true? Were you in denial at all? 

Patti: I, I don't think I was in. I don't think I was in denial because it was very matter of fact.

And I, I was able to look it up right away. And it was, they had stories, a story about it because, you know, it was a pretty awful thing and it was on St. Patrick's Day. So St. Patrick's Day has never been the same for me. Like, I can't, I was never one to celebrate, even though I have strong Irish roots, but I now, it's just not even a thing.

Like for me it feels triggery. Um. And I also found after that too, after time passed, that the amount of TV shows and movies that to have people getting hit by cars is very large. And I had never noticed it before because that became like, I suddenly had almost like A-P-T-S-D from it. Like I had triggers 

Jan: Yeah.

Patti: From it. And if I could, would see it coming on, I would have to cover my eyes because I couldn't watch somebody be. Be hit because all I was doing, especially in the beginning was picturing what, what was it like? I hope you know that her back was turned and maybe she had headphones in, and so she didn't hear it.

She didn't see it. Like, you know, I'm trying to see what was her last moments like. And I read any information I could get on it because I, you know, she was one of my people. Mm-hmm. And it was so hard to. Process that she wasn't there and that I would never be able to talk to her again. Mm-hmm. And then there's also guilt, right?

Then there's, I wasn't a good enough friend. I wasn't there enough. We hadn't talked as frequently 'cause we we're adults. Now we live in separate places. And so there's all of these things and I think what was really interesting is as I researched grief, it wasn't some linear. Process that people talk about, about going through these stages.

It, it is a sneaky thing. Grief, like that was makes 

Jan: up on you. 

Patti: It absolutely does. And like you're feeling good and like after you know time, the initial time passes and you start to like, once your life isn't feeling like it's stopped, you're just doing things and then boom, bam. It could be the tiniest nothing and you're sobbing or you're like.

Or you're angry or, and man, that guy, he, this drunk asshole who, this was not his first time getting caught drinking and driving. And that made me really angry. And then the system, you know, it was taking forever and like there's just this Then you're angry that I'm angry. Exactly. And I, I wish this guy harm and I wish him like.

And then that passes and, okay. I am trying to see him as a person. Like there's just all these things. There's so much, it's so heavy and it's so deep, but in the end it's, I miss my friend. Mm-hmm. And my heart is destroyed because I, I, you know, the first Christmas I didn't text her that we always texted on Christmas, the first birthday.

You know, all of those things. And then every year after it's, it's, it's, it's very weird. It's a very weird thing. 

Yeah. 

Jan: It's. You know, I mean, what's really well known is of course, Elizabeth Kogler Ross. We were just saying this, and she talks about her five stages, and that's, it's, it's a, that's the biggest criticism that people have is the five stages.

It's not a linear process. No, it's not. Okay. Now I'm in denial. Okay, now I'm anger, now I'm depressed, now I'm bargaining, and now I'm going to accept everything. Right. And it's absolutely not like that. I think it's more like what you just were saying and it, I was feeling a little bit of. Shame actually while you were talking, 'cause I was thinking, I never felt what you're just describing with your, uh, friend.

When my mom or dad died, I was thinking, well, what was that? And I think it has to do with attachment. Because I wasn't really all that attached to them because I was living in another part of the country and doing my own thing, and I didn't really have capacity. I was so busy. Mm. Yeah. Being in my life that it was kinda like, oh, they passed.

All right. Well that's their, and, but what I do know, I did have grief in 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Is when my dog died. 

Patti: Right. 

Jan: That that was when I was on the floor. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, and I think that's the thing is, is I think that's a great point you brought up talking about the shame around that and what you feel and what you don't.

And I remember having something similar when, when my grandfather passed. Mm-hmm. Um, I walked into the room right after he had passed, like actually at, we were all at the hospital. We knew it was coming and. I actually was like, we're probably gonna be here all day. And I went home to get a crossword puzzle, to have something to do at the hospital, and the elevator doors open.

And when I was there, I was, I saw my brother's girlfriend and I said, I just wish he would go already. You know, like, he's sick, he's unhappy. He's like, and when the girl, the doors open, my brothers ran in and one of them was crying and I was like, I missed it. Okay. And then I went in and everybody was sobbing in the room and the and, and I was like, huh.

But I was glad that he was in peace. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he wasn't, he was such a prideful man, and he didn't want tubes in him and all of that. And so 

Jan: Sure. 

Patti: Everybody's crying and everybody's having all these emotions. And I was like, okay. Like I didn't, I don't even know that I cried initially, like. I was happy for 

Jan: him.

That's interesting. Yeah. Happy for him. And I think I could, you know, you can also hold that happy for them, but when it comes to being really attached to somebody Yeah. Like your girlfriend or like 

Patti: Yeah, 

Jan: dog. Or if I, yeah. So if it were my son's or husband, it would've be a different story. Uh, it just like, like why that would be like on the floor, you know, you know, crying.

Um, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: If not, you know, like laying there and not getting outta bed. 

Patti: Yeah. '

Jan: cause I can really see that. So I think it has a lot to do with your, how deep the relationship is, the attachment that you have. Yeah. And it can even apply to like relationships like you Yeah. Like, I've been married now 36 years, so I haven't had a, but when I was dating years ago, you know, you're with someone, you were with someone for a while.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: 15 years. I, I lived with a couple different guys and I lived with them for a few years, and when the, uh, relationship ended, there was a lot of. Grief, just like this woman was talking about. It was, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: Ambiguous. Like in it's heart, everyone's like, oh, Jan, forget it. You'll find somebody. No. You know when people do that?

Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: People do that to you. 

Patti: I hate that too. And I, well, I wanna finish one piece about the, the death one, which is, I think it also has to do with. If it's sudden. And if it's not, I think sudden death is more shocking. And so you tend to have bigger reactions because you're, you know, so I think that's part of it also.

Um, but yeah, with, when it comes to, I think relationships, I also hate that when people say, just, you know, you'll find, meet somebody new and move on, but oh my goodness, like you. This was your person for whatever period of time. Mm-hmm. And you shared intimacies with them on every level. You trusted them.

You probably spent more time with them than anybody else. And in a lot of cases, especially with long relationships. You've envisioned a future with this person. You, you have this whole thought of, I'm gonna be with this person for a long time. Or if you've been married and you've gotten a divorce, you assumed at some point you were going to spend the rest of your life with this person.

Mm-hmm. And so when all of a sudden that ends, whether it be sudden or nothmm. There's grief there because you've lost a person. 'cause in most cases you don't tend to talk to your exes. Some people do, but most people don't. So you've lost that person in your life. You've lost any mutual friendship potentials.

Like sometimes you lose those. But now you've also lost this life that you. Knew as you knew it, this potential future that you had in your mind. Right? 'cause what does your future look like now? Now you have, so like you're grieving so many different things actually in the loss of a relationship. 

Jan: Right.

And I 

Patti: think, yeah. 

Jan: And that relationship that you had or that I had there. Besides that, I was just thinking you can also say the same thing for if someone has Alzheimer's. Yes. Like who was just diagnosed with a LS 

Patti: Mm. And 

Jan: it's just. It's tragic watching her, and I mean, a part of me when she dies will be happy for, yeah.

Another part of me will be missing our relationship. Yeah. You know, and that's what you were talking about. And it could be someone with mental illness, addiction. I was just thinking, you know, when someone is Oh yeah. An addict. They're gone. They're not, they're checked out. Their first love is their drug or whatever they're doing.

Yeah. And your relationship ends what you remember, what you had kind of goes out the door. I mean, I'm just trying to think of all the different ways of 

Patti: Another is, you know, say you don't have parents that are. Parents that are parental. Like I remember, and this, I don't think at the time I named as grief, but I remember when I was in like high school, maybe a senior year in high school, um, there was this girl that came in in the classroom and she's like, my daddy won't buy me a car.

And I was kind of like. At least you have a dad, you know, because mine was in prison for abuse and like all these things. And so like, and I've thought that even in my current times with, with my mom is I've had to step into caretaker roles. You, you mourn the loss of that, like, you know, and what you're saying with Alzheimer's, it's similar when you're in caretaking for a parent, when they were the ones caring for you and now you're caring for them.

I mean all of these are forms of grief and you know. It's loss. 

Jan: Yeah. I, I'm just reading actually a page out of talking about, she's saying that there's ambiguous grief, different things, um, addiction, which we just talked about. Brain injury, broken engagements 

Patti: mm-hmm. 

Jan: For people who's, you know, standing at the altar and the, all of a sudden the other partner says, I'm not getting married.

Uh, a divorce, uh, family estrangement. Gender identity change? I've never even thought of that one. 

Patti: Yeah, sure. 

Jan: Uh, inter, let's see, job loss. Mm-hmm. You talked about that. Uh, mental health, uh, rejection, retirement. I can talk about that. Yeah. And, um, and. These are just all these different ways that people grieve.

Like for me, my biggest thing, which I never thought was gonna hit me, but once I turned 70, it's like my whole body started falling apart. And it is like, and I used to be a dancer. You knew that right? 

Patti: Did I know? I don't know if I knew. You used 

Jan: to college. Yeah, 

Patti: of course you did. Yeah. Why? 

Jan: University of Illinois and Champaign Urbana.

I made their dance program there and 

Patti: Oh no, I did not. I thought you were in tech and then a flight attendant and then a therapist. 

Jan: Oh gosh. I had 

Patti: to make sure 

Jan: I covered all the bases 

Patti: you've had. You've lived a life Jan. 

Jan: So, and what do you do when you're a dancer? You're thin, you're in shape. You're always dancing.

You're physically active. You know your whole life is all about the body. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And all of a sudden now I can realize why some movie stars, not that I consider myself a movie star, but that when you age. You know, how do you gracefully age? And I haven't, I have been angry about it and I've been barking.

I've been doing this, these stages of Elizabeth because I, you know, it's like, now it's like, okay, two hip replaced a back replaced, my knee will have to be replaced. It's like my whole being is just being eaten up and it's, it's really, I, I'm really grieving the fact that my body is just not my body anymore.

It's, it's been hard. 

Patti: Yeah, I think that's a great one in the sense of, a great example of, of that and think of other times like if you are an athlete and you have an injury, like that's grief too, because not only have you lost potentially your career, but yet like mobility that you're used to having the ability to do things like you.

Grieve that. Yeah. Like I grieve my twenties sometimes of like this part of myself who, you know, I did drugs and I had fun and I did these things and like I, there's moments where I'm like, man, that was a great time, but I'm just not into that now and I don't, that's not something I'm interested in really.

I grieve that sometimes and, but I think, yeah, as we, we age. Yeah, and we lose abilities to do certain things. It does, whereas you, you forget things you don't remember, like how we all know the walking into a room and being liter, literally, it's not even a joke. Like you walk into a room, I'm only almost 45, like, and I'm like, Hmm, no idea.

No idea why I am in here. 

Jan: Well, I'll tell you, it, it is, it's decline. It's the slow decline. But I'll tell you, it really won. You know, for certain people it is, you know, the surgeries, it's like nothing gets prepared the way it used to be, you know? Yeah. So it's kind of like you're dealing with all this decline and it is a, for me, grieving the fact that I can't dance and do the things that I used to do.

Patti: Yeah. It's, 

Jan: it's, uh, sometimes I. Really don't like it. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. It's, I can only imagine. I mean, that's, I've had a lot of issues with my legs, my whole life, and, and I go through periods where like they're in better place. Like they just, they go on, it's a whole thing, but. Sometimes I can walk a lot and you know, like I've never been able to walk a lot, but I can walk a fair amount and sometimes I can't at all.

And sometimes I'm in a lot of pain walking a block and have been, you know, and that's been my life for a very long time. And, and that's hard too, especially when I used to hike a ton and now I'm like the idea of hiking at this point. Like I know how much pain I would be in and that sucks. Yeah, that's really hard.

And I'd, ugh. Living, being in the trees and oh my God, that like fed my soul and I can't just go and hike through trees 

Jan: and fed your soul. And that's, that's part of it is now we're not talking about someone leaving you or dying. Yeah. Talking about something that fed your soul that you were really connected to and now it's gone.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And that's hard. I was just looking at the stages of thinking. I remember in my seventies when I started, first I was in denial. I'm like, this is not happening to me. I'm just gonna keep walking through it. Yeah. And then I got angry, like, why is this happening to me? And then I was thinking, I've been depressed.

And then it's like, okay, bargaining. I'm like, I'm thinking I've been going, okay, so if I do this, then I wanna be able to make sure that this happens and I'll be able to do this. Or, you know, okay. And then will I be okay? You know? Yeah. It was never okay then. Right. And I don't know that I've come to acceptance yet, or, uh, meaning, uh, the meaning I kind of have.

Um, that's a very interesting thing because once people start grieving. Grief can go on for a couple years or 

Patti: longer depending on that. 

Jan: Right. One of the things though that I see, um, in the grieving process is that at some point you might be able to make some meaning as to why something happened the way it did, and what did it serve in your life.

And I think that comes years, you know, it takes a while to get to that. You can't get to that right away. You're in the process of 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Of, you know, moving all that energy you have. And, and it, it's been hard. I mean, I don't know that, uh, it's gonna go away for me, but maybe I'll just come to more acceptance and just knowing that that's part of life.

And I was, I was watching a movie last night. It's called, uh, down the. Oh, what was it called? Down? It's from, it's on Apple TV with Emma Stone. Do you know who Emma Stone is? 

Patti: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Jan: And she is in it and she's like 63 or four and she's look is not touched up at all and looks her age. And I was thinking, I wonder if she's grieving the loss of her beauty and her acting.

Um, and you know, I mean that's the whole thing is how do. People, they keep going to plastic surgeons and they keep doing these things to try to, to get it around it and, you know, can, can it come where you can just be okay in acceptance? I, I'm not sure I, I'm there yet. 

Patti: Yeah. Well, and I think that's interesting is like some, and I think well, like everything right, that we talk about here is some people will and some people won't, right?

Like it depends on what the work you're willing to do. And I mean. When you, before we started recording, you first talked about, um, the idea of like, at the end of all the grieving, there's meaning at some point. And I don't know, like I'm not in heavy grief anymore. I mean, it's been almost six years since Julia passed and um, you know, like I will not work on St.

Patrick's Day just in case, you know, 'cause I don't ever know. 'cause the grief is. Surprising. Mm-hmm. And, but on most days and times, I'm not, I think about her all the time, but I'm not grieving. I'm not, 

Jan: yeah. 

Patti: You know, but I don't know how to find meaning in a young 39-year-old being killed with, with a car.

You know? 

Jan: I was thinking more like meaning for me to like, um. Let go of thinking I have to look a certain way. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jan: And, and for you it would be like maybe, uh, learning to really appreciate the relationships that you do have. Mm, present. That's, I see. More like meaning, like 

Patti: going 

Jan: deeper, being hit by a, yeah.

Oh, go. 

Patti: That whole 

Jan: thing. Thing. Come on Patty. Go deeper. 

Patti: No, especially I'm with my therapist, I'm like, oh, you wanna like do therapy or something? Right. Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. And, and I guess that's a really great point because some of the work I've done since then that was maybe probably in a, in a sense related is I've been doing a lot of work on learning to say I love you to people.

That's something, because of my past traumas, I have a hard time. Expressing my feelings and expressing myself, um, verbally and even sometimes physically. So like I've been practicing hugging people and telling people I love them and things like that. And, and that's some of that as well. Yeah, because I wanna make sure that people know how much I freaking adore them.

I adore some people so much and I want them to know, and I know Yulia knew, but. You know, there's always that parts of me that's like, did she, did she And I wanna make sure, yeah. 

Jan: This, uh, woman in this book, soul Broken, she's talking about that there's two different stages of grief at some point when you get to a point where you're trying to do some recovery on it.

Yeah. She says some people can stay in, um, this kind of feeling victimized and, and depressed and sad and can't go on with their life. 

Patti: Right. 

Jan: And real recovery that comes out of grieving is where you start like looking at yourself and thinking, okay, now how do I move on with my life? Yeah. And I was thinking about that.

And I guess that applies to all of them. Like if you break up with your boyfriend or you break, or you know, someone has Alzheimer's and they're struggling and maybe, maybe there is a purpose for you, like, how can I go on from this and maybe visit more often or maybe work with that clientele or maybe, I don't know.

But it, it just seems that, uh, rather than dropping into kind of the abyss. Yeah. And getting depressed and saying, my life is over. Like, I think about that if like my, one of my sons were to die, I'm like, I think I would probably be there, but if, if the, what she really recommends, and of course as a therapist, when I had clients that are grieving, I'm hoping at some point that they get to the point where they can look forward to what do I need to do with my life?

And I don't know. I mean, for you, with your friend, I was, oh, this is what I was gonna say too. When my horrible, when my dog died, I think for a whole year my heart was broken. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: I would look at other dogs and I would just, I could feel it in my body like it was a sensation. 

Patti: Oh yeah. 

Jan: My heart was broken.

And I'm sure with your girlfriend it was the same way. 

Patti: Oh yeah. 

Jan: But over six years you said, or over? My dog's now been dead about five years. You know, now it's just like, it's like kind of a good memory of like what you would like do, do you know 

Patti: what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's love. It's love.

It's checking. Yeah. It's different. Yeah. It was always, I think in the beginning for me, like I said, I couldn't, like if I saw a potential car accident thing coming or. One of the movies we watched together all the time was Dirty Dancing, and we'd watch it over and over and over again and and make it's such a great movie.

And we would make the same comments every time. And so the very first thing I did was I sat there, lit a candle for her and sobbed as I watched Dirty Dancing. And then I would watch it a lot, you know, like. And now it's like I can hear clips from Dirty Dancing without feeling this kind of way, and it's enjoyable and I feel the love and I remember those things.

And so I think there is that, that part where you get, and now I can, you know, I don't like that, that I, that people get hit by cars, but I don't in movies and stuff, but I don't cringe the same. And what that did offer me as well is. A little bit of, um, compassion and awareness of how many people can be so easily true.

Like we, we all have so many experiences that we need to be gentle when we think about other people. Like we are so casual about things and making jokes and putting things out there and like everybody has something that can. Trigger them. And not that we have to walk on eggshells, but let's be conscious of the fact that people are grieving all sorts of stuff, 

Jan: right.

Patti: And, and 

Jan: be respectful for 

Patti: the process. Be respectful. Yeah. I think that's a, a great way to put that. But yeah, I mean, it, it has changed and, and now it's, it's different and it's, you know, I, I would like to go to the place where she died, just because that feels important to me. Um. But I remember her fondly and, and the same like my cat.

I literally, he's still alive. I have two cats, but one of them is my like soulmate. Like he's my, I like literally like, you're my best friend. And like, I already, he's 11 and I'm like, oh boy, this is not gonna go well. Like when the time comes, like I am, that is something I'm aware that, yeah. He is gonna, he's the first cat I've had, the first animal I've had in my life where I'm like, 

Jan: mm-hmm.

Patti: That one's gonna destroy me for a bit. And you know, so 

Jan: I think that honoring the process of grief. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Like I, I know some of my clients that I had, and I know even, uh, friends of mine when they're, they don't grieve. They, they just, let's get on. Clap your hands. Let's get on. Let's just stop that Jan. Don't, don't over.

Right. Yeah. Don't be such a baby, you know, or something, you know? Right. 

Patti: Yeah. Then you can do, can't cry, cry over spilled milk. 

Jan: Yeah. So get on with it. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So, and that's, I think, too sad because there is a whole process of kind of clearing the system and Yeah. To, uh, go through that, uh, and respect it. And so that's one thing I, I just wanted to really say again.

Yeah. It makes a difference in people, uh, on their ability to then clear out and be present in life rather than always in the victim or the, the grief or the sadness or the pain and I can't move on. Yeah. And that's, that's where grieving is an important process that needs to be respected. 

Patti: Yeah. And I think that's really important and I know that that's, you know.

By the time this happened for me, I had already started learning boundaries for myself. And so I immediately said, I'm, I need, I told my clients, I said, this has happened. I've lost somebody in my life and I'm taking some time off. And you know, I took, I think a week maybe, and I, and I cried a lot because I knew that's where I was at and I wasn't gonna try to fight through and I did what I had to do.

You gotta do what you gotta do. But like, I think giving yourself that space, and like I said, every year on St. Patrick's. Day because I know sometimes I'm gonna not be in a great space, so I just take the day off and maybe I'll end up working 'cause I feel fine, but I just don't have meetings and stuff because I, I want to think about where, where might grief live a little bit or poke its head up and how can I support myself in the future?

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: And in the now, and I think it's really important for you to, to feel, feel the things. And it's hard and grief hurts so bad because. There's nothing that you can do to change it. And I think that's one of the hardest things with grief is you just have to like, literally, 

Jan: you it 

Patti: have 

Jan: to move 

Patti: through.

Jan: Yeah. And move through you. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. We can't change it. So, I mean, and I think that's what happens with like relationships and stuff. People, they, oh, well, it's all trying to avoid grief. People are trying to, oh, like, don't break up with me. Like, you know, all, like, whatever happens. Or they're in denial.

That's where denial comes in, like. You've gotta feel the sadness, you've gotta feel the anger, you've gotta feel gypped and you've gotta feel like, I, you know, it sucks that I lost this blows, or it's not fair that this, I've lost this person or this thing at this. Like, feel it. And, and I think when you're grieving, especially in the beginning, have that pity party because oh my God, what a, what a hard thing you're going through, you know?

And then. You do start to move on and you do start trying to get back to life, but hold space when it pops up because, 

Jan: well, I think you bring up some really important points is that, you know, is, uh, in helping the whole process and one of 'em you just had mentioned before is kind of a ritual that you do 

Patti: Yeah.

Jan: With your friend. And it, to me ritual is, uh, something important. Like whether you're with a couple of friends and you're, you know, taking. Maybe a pair of a necklace or something that your mother gave you and you wanted to take it and you wanna, uh, put it away. Or, I remember one guy, he had a, a gold chain, um, from his mother that she gave him, and he took it hiking and he buried it, you know?

Mm-hmm. Because, and clothes, the closure. So having some kind of a closing ritual of, you know, your dog dying, or the relationships ending or, you know, I, I, I don't know for my body what I would do for that is. Is just knowing that, um, I don't know. I have to think on what that ritual would be for me. Uh, yeah, 

Patti: I mean, could you make a new dance that you, that fits the body that you're in?

Jan: Yeah, that's a good idea because I think ritual is a way of. Really saying, this is what was important to me and now it's closing. I'm putting this away. It's a new chapter. I'm moving on. 

Patti: Yeah. And 

Jan: um, so I think that another one too, you had mentioned is something about having friends around is you took time off mm-hmm.

And being able to share it with really good friends just to listen to you. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Or a therapist. Yeah. But, uh, I think either one of them works is just being able to talk it out if that works for you. Yeah. Or cry it out. 

Patti: All of the above. Yeah. And having somebody who, I have a client of mine who she's been with me for a long time and she, when Yulia died, I actually had a meeting with her right next.

And I like, was shaking hands, was messaging her being like, I can't, I, I, you know, and it was like all typo. And I was just like, my friend died, you know, she lit a candle for Yulia and she, every year. She remembers it every year and she lights a candle for Yulia on, on the anniversary of her death, as do I.

But like even that, that's like a beautiful thing. That's a 

Jan: beautiful thing. 

Patti: Isn't that just, it's such a beautiful thing to say. I get a picture that says, thinking of Yulia and, and her and a candle lit, and I'm just like, oh my God. Like. 

Yeah, 

Patti: that's, you know, have amazing people in your life because, 

Jan: yeah.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: I remember what I did with my dog is we had her ashes and we took 'em to where she used to go to the park and run and we would, we took the ashes and we threw 'em at the park, you know, in the park. And so those are the kinds of things I think that help and, and closing out that chapter of your life and moving on.

The other couple things I was thinking about is, besides that it takes time, is sometimes people like to journal. I don't know. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: I'm not a big journaler. Yeah. But some people find that extremely helpful. Yeah. Just to be able to maybe even write a letter to the person or to what the loss is to your dog, to 

Patti: mm-hmm.

Jan: Your boyfriend that you're breaking up with to, you know, to my mother who was, had dementia and she couldn't say anything, but just something 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: You know, to close out what is going on and to honor your whole process. I mean, it's really about honoring and respecting. 

Patti: Yeah, and I think it's what, what feels peaceful for you and what feels loving for you and that person, that relationship, that whatever.

It's right. A lot of people will like burn things from that were meaningful in a relationship they were in and be like, good ridden, or I let you go or whatever. Like I've ridden. I, I don't tend to journal anymore either, but I will write letters and burn them and things like that specifically for that, because it just gets it out and gets, it lets it go into the universe or whatever you believe.

And, and I think there's power in that because it's the intention behind that, you know, that you're, you're choosing to sort of let something go. I remember I did this one thing that. When I lit a candle as well, the fir, as soon as she passed, and when it was burnt down, it ended up in a heart shape, which I felt was, you know, but I was like, what do I do with this candle now?

Like there's a chunk of candle left of this wax and it feels weird to like throw it away because it was, and so I melted it down. I made other candles out of it. And so I then would give those candles to other people or light them myself. And so it was a bit of that candle that was left. So it made me feel better.

Like I didn't just throw away this candle. 

Jan: Yeah, 

Patti: that held this energy. But it was a way of being creative, doing something I loved and passing it on, you know, in this way. 

Jan: That's very interesting. And I had never come across that before. A friend of mine, he was another therapist. I've had two male therapists both die from cancer anyway, but he, his wife, uh, he was cremated and she put his, uh, ashes in little vials and put 'em in little like purple, um, velvet, uh, ba uh, bags and for good friends.

She handed them out to her friends. I know. And I thought, oh, that's very interesting. And, but there's so many things you can come up. But, uh, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: You know, whatever works for you. But anyway. Wow. A lot of grief in the world, isn't there? 

Patti: Oh my gosh. We haven't even talked about world grief and thinking about the grief of others and their struggles.

Like there's so much, and so I think the, the best thing is we're gonna, you know, put resources together. Some of the books that Jan has mentioned and, and other things, but like, I think be connected, connect with others. I like the idea of. Looking at meaning in it in some way. Um, when you can later, 

Jan: right?

Patti: Yeah, yeah. When you can get there. In the beginning though, hold the space like you deserve to and you're allowed to feel and feel whatever. It, and grief looks different for everybody. 

Jan: Yes. 

Patti: And, and, and it looks different for every type of grief and like. Don't question it, don't judge it. Don't be ashamed of how you feel.

Like just feel it and be in it. Be with 

Jan: people and friends that can respect and honor. Yes. 

Patti: Yeah. Whether that's talking or sitting in silence or watching dirty dancing with you or what, like whatever it is like that, a hundred percent is, is where to go. So yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. Well that is, it's kind of a sacred topic, you know?

Patti: It is. Yeah. Yeah. And it's an important one. I think we need to talk about it more because that is one thing we will all experience in our lifetime is grief. 

Jan: Yep. 

Patti: Repeatedly, 

Jan: right. For many things. 

Patti: Exactly. Yeah, 

Jan: it is. Well, thanks Patty. I've enjoyed talking to you about this. I'm gonna be thinking on what I need to do to come to acceptance in my own work.

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Let us know when you do. 

Jan: Okay? All right. Take care. 

Patti: You too. 

Jan: Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends, subscribe and leave a review. 

Patti: And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional.

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest. 

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. 

Jan: You can find links to both of those over at our website at 

Patti: things my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes.

Jan: Thank you.