The Grief Timeline: How Loss Shapes Us with Dr. Rick Butts

The conversation this week with our colleague and friend, Dr. Rick Butts, stopped us in our tracks—in the best way.

Rick walked us through his grief timeline, beginning with losing his grandmother at 7, his father at 10, and later his mother at 35. What unfolded was something we hadn’t quite thought about before: grief isn’t just an event… it’s a thread that runs through your entire life.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why many of us get “stuck” in one stage of grief (hello, denial)
• How childhood loss quietly shapes adult coping patterns
• Why unprocessed grief lives in the body
• The idea that all counseling is grief work
• What it means to complete a “threat response”
• How to create your own grief timeline
• Why retirement, divorce, moving, and unmet expectations are real losses
• How mindfulness helps us embody grief instead of outrun it
• The power of meaning-making in healing

Rick vulnerably shares his own journey—from shutting down as a 10-year-old boy to fully grieving decades later through experiential therapy.

And we ask the big question:

Where are you in your grief timeline?

If this episode stirred something in you, you’re not alone. Grief is not weakness. It’s human. And you don’t have to move through it by yourself.

About Dr. Rick Butts:

Rick has been a therapist for the past 37 years. During this time, he has been a professor at two different Universities. At the University of Cincinnati, he taught in the Human Social Services department. And at the Cincinnati Christian University, he taught in their Master of Arts in counseling program. Throughout these 37 years, he has maintained a private practice focused for several years on children, adolescents, and families. Then he transitioned to adults with an interest in developmental and relational trauma and couples counseling. In 2013, he co-founded the Healing Our Core Issues Institute with Jan Bergstrom, which is a training program for therapists, social workers, marriage and family therapists, psychologists, and coaches.

Website: https://www.drrickbutts.com

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to things my mother forgot to mention, 

Patti: the podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author, turned rogue storyteller here to talk openly about the body aging and all the. Wait, what moments of womanhood 

Patti: and I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things my mother forgot to mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me? 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty. Two, outspoken, curious, outrageous women as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging health, and quite simply being a woman 

Patti: from rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning 

Jan: to mental health perimenopause.

In scalp cancer. Yes. Really 

Patti: nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk. Your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. 

Patti: Hello, Jan. 

Jan: Hey there, Patty. It's good to see you. Happy New Year. 

Patti: It's good to see you. Happy New Year. How are you? 

Jan: I'm doing pretty good. 

Patti: Excellent. 

Jan: So we are following up and we have a new guest today, correct?

Patti: We do. Uh, we're doing our follow up on grief and today we are talking with your colleague Yes. And kind of mine now also. Mm-hmm. Um, Rick Butts and I'll read a little bit about him. Rick has been a therapist for the past 37 years. During this time, he has been a professor at two different universities at the University of Cincinnati.

He taught in their human social services department and at the Cincinnati Christian University. He taught in their Masters of Arts in counseling program. Throughout these 37 years, he has maintained a private. Practice focused for several years on children, adolescents, and families. Then he transitioned to adults with an interest in developmental and relational trauma and couples counseling.

In 2013, he co-founded The Healing Our Core Issues Institute with Jan Bergstrom, which is a training program for therapists, social workers, and marriage and family therapists, psychologists, and coaches. Welcome Rick. 

Jan: Welcome, Rick. Good to see you. 

RIck: It's good to be with both of you today. I feel honored to be here.

I believe I might be the first 

Jan: Yes. 

RIck: Male. 

Jan: Yes. Are you're, and thank you so much for doing that. Yeah. Because most think people think this is just for women and it's, it's not, so thank you. 

Patti: Yeah. But we are selective with the, the men that we choose and, and men who are advocates and allies for women, of which you are.

RIck: Well, I'm glad to be here with both of you today. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So what's it like for you to hear that today? You're gonna talk about grief as the, were you, did you feel like you had enough, uh, experience material for it? I mean, what, what kind of went through your mind, Rick? 

RIck: Well, I, um. I've been thinking about it.

Um, you both invited me to, um, come on to the podcast, and so over the last couple of weeks particularly, I've been thinking about it and, um, yes, I think that I have more than enough material to 

Patti: yes. 

RIck: Add my perspective. Um, mm-hmm. Jan, you certainly know my story. And, and Patty's heard a bit of that as well.

Mm-hmm. So, um, uh, like I said, just been reflective on it and, um, it's actually brought up some new insights, which is Oh, really part of the, um, uh, ongoing story of our lives, I believe, for all of us and with various things. And so, um, in my mindfulness practice, just trying to be attuned and. Reflective on, um, this theme of my life.

Jan: Yeah. And so do you wanna share a little bit about what that is or where you wanna start? 

RIck: Yes. I have been thinking about this theme and one of the things that, um, I listened to your first podcast on death that the two of you did a few weeks ago. And, um. It got me to thinking about how my experience, and this is information about me, uh, was that when I was seven years old?

That would be my first entry into death that I really remember, and, um, that, uh, my grandma, my maternal grandma, um, passed away and that I came down with the chicken pox 

Patti: and I 

RIck: can very clearly remember wanting to go to the funeral. And I, I wasn't allowed to, and I was, I was really upset about that. Mm-hmm.

And so in the last couple of, you know, weeks thinking about this, it all of a sudden hit me. I thought that would've been my first story. And I think it was listening. Jan, do you talking about being in elementary school and your principal dying? Mm-hmm. And that your parents. Didn't talk to you and took you to the service.

And that was actually the catalyst listening to that, where I thought, that's really interesting how Jan and I, our experiences were different. Is that how I, I could very clearly remember that. And, um, I don't think you, Patty had any early experiences like this. You were a little bit older as, as you talked about it.

Patti: Yeah. 

RIck: So then. My entry into, which is something that is more dramatic, is when I was 10 years old and that, um, nine days before my 10th birthday and nine days before Christmas my dad died. Mm-hmm. And so, um, that's something I've, uh, in my own therapy have, have really worked on. And, and. Emerges in in different ways.

But Patty, when you said that question that you and Jan asked about what your, what your mom didn't teach you, I all of a sudden had a memory. And Jan, I know you haven't heard this story either, is that the Wednesday night before my dad died, I was staying with my aunt and my mom came home from the hospital.

My dad was 37 years old. My mom was 32. I have one sister that's two and a half years younger than me that, uh, my dad was doing okay. It, I won't go into the details of his health issues. Didn't know he was dying at that point. But, um, my mom had just gotten to my aunt's house and the hospital called. And said that, uh, my dad had started to decline, which now I think back was, uh, two days before he died.

And so it was, it was the beginning of the end and in my aunt's house, my mom was on the phone, she started to cry and I went into the bathroom. My mom was upset. And this is the beginning of a, a theme that has been with me about, which is a part of the grief stages from Elizabeth Kubler Ross's is Denial.

Patti: Hmm. 

RIck: Is that my nervous system was overwhelmed and I withdrew, went into the bathroom, and my mom came to the door. And I can notice that as I tell you both this story and. I, you know, she knelt down and she was really upset. 

Patti: Hmm. 

RIck: And was crying and I was there with her. So, um. That is just something that's just in the last 24 hours hit me that it's something I know.

But in thinking about this jam, when you asked that question, I was like, oh, yep, I, uh, I wanted to share that with y'all because you think about, 

Jan: so that's what you learned about grieving? 

RIck: Yeah. 

Jan: This is how you grieve. Or when someone, something is lost, this is how you handle it. You withdraw and you shut down and no one talks about it.

Is that what you're saying? 

RIck: Well, that that's how I dealt with it. 

Jan: Yeah. 

RIck: She came to me really upset and one of the things that we talk about in our work is I think I absorbed her grief right then and there because she was really upset and it was the two of us, and so. She was actually, and, and she didn't do anything wrong.

Her husband is dying and she was saying goodbye to me. I've gotta go back to the hospital now. This links to then Jan. Now full circle. Coming back to what you said, I think, and this was like an aha for me in the last 24 hours, is that, um, on the morning of my dad's death, is that I can remember. Knowing something was happening.

I didn't know that he had died at that moment. But I honestly remember laying in bed as a 10-year-old thinking, if I just lay here denial, which again, the nervous system overwhelmed and being able to face that. And that is something that I have really, when I think about grief and, and the origin story, what I did to.

Today, really the last 24 hours is think back on. You know, two days prior, which I had never linked those two before, which is important for people. As I've been thinking about your audience and people listening to this, and I think it's really important to do a grief timeline. I don't know if anybody is, oh no, 

Jan: we haven't talked about that.

RIck: Yeah. Tell 

Jan: me about that. 

RIck: Yeah, that's something, what I've been thinking about is that, um, really beginning and, and you all. Talked about this in the first podcast where you both shared, you know, again, Jan, that was your first experience. Nobody talked about it, which was, was classic. You know, at that time nobody would talk about that.

You went, you saw the body. It was traumatizing, Patty, you were, I think, in your teens, weren't you? Mm-hmm. You know, but I think being able to track that, because as you all have been talking in these last three podcasts, I think of, you know. Grief as multifaceted. And so the, the loss of a relate, obviously this is dramatic what I'm talking about.

I've done a lot of work around this. I had some new insights today, which is why I'm saying this. You can revisit things, but starting with a baseline of, you know, this is the first time I thought, um, about death. This is the first loss that I had. And, and then track that, and then underneath of that.

Timeline is, what was that like for me? So that would be the developmental element of it. It, it's like that for me. I was. You know, my first, when I'm seven years old is I, I wanted to be there. I think that's my extroverted relational part and the loss of my grandma, which is interesting. I mean, I did because I didn't go.

That now what I'm talking about, um, overwhelming grief and shutdown and then my experience just a couple of days later and, and really beginning to develop what I believe is something I've had to, well, I don't believe I know is a part of my story is denial, is I'm really good at that. So the nervous system is a self-protective response, shut down.

Um, of course, as a 10-year-old boy. How that 10-year-old boy shows up. Still to this day, I'm so much better with all the work I've done, but is that I can go into denial. Oh, that is not really happening. That can be fine. And many people have that. 

Jan: So what you're saying is that the pattern was struck back then.

Your mother didn't teach you a lot, or they didn't talk a lot about what is grieving, or you saw a different thing and what you automatically did is shut down and that shows up in your life today. Mm-hmm. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 

Patti: When your, when your grandmother passed and you wanted to go, but you couldn't.

RIck: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Did you, do you have any memories of what grief looked like as you were then? Presumably one of the only people, if not the only person home, while others were going. Right. And others got to go. So there was still had to have been grief even as a child in some way. Whether or not you remember it, that was a different story, but mm-hmm.

Do you have a recollection of. Or was that the, the first moment of starting to be like, well, if I can't be there, it's not happening. Kind of situation with denial. 

RIck: Mm-hmm. That's good, Patty. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, it could have been because my other grandma, uh, stayed home with me that day. I remember that, but I, I.

I don't think I have anything. I'd have to think about that more. It's a great question. Um, which I will. Thank you. Yeah. That's like, because that, I like how you link that back is that that could have been the origin story, the real, you know, it's like, well, okay, fine. Not there, which is a part of our death denying culture, you know, that, uh, people don't want to face that.

So that's like natural for us. And going back to what. After this and of, of course that whole week. And, um, I don't, you know, I could say more about that, but what's interesting is that then, I don't think we talked about it. I went back to school. I was in fourth grade and I don't remember any acknowledgement of that.

Or from your 

Jan: mom. 

RIck: Yeah. Yeah. From my mom or anybody Really? Yeah. And it's, it's just like we continued on and then I grew up, so then this is the loss. So it's like the, the death loss in all the different ways that, again, your listeners are, are, I'm encouraging them to think about all the different kinds.

You know, the death of an animal can be a huge thing, a friendship. A job, things like that. And 

Jan: don't you think Rick, though, that like you're talking about different kinds of grief, but some people actually feel it and do grieving if there's, if you wanna put it as a verb, grieving. I'm grieving. Mm-hmm. And that may be, I don't know what that would look like, is that someone is actually allowing themselves to feel it, to cry.

You know? It kind of can be up and down and all that. So what you are saying though is that someone died and there was loss, but no one really grieved. It is, does that feel true? 

RIck: Right. At least that I remember. That's right. Mm-hmm. And then again, that gets formed and that's why I'm saying for each.

Individual. Um, and, and you both have thought about that and, um, talked a bit about your grief timeline, but I think that's important for everybody is, is to think about that. Like we're talking about that and it's like looking at then the pattern that emerges, you know, for you because then you just put your head down and take care of business.

That's one of my taglines that I say. 

Jan: Right. 

RIck: You know, and I was just say, and you don't grieve. Chad, great. 

Jan: And you don't grief it. It's just you, you move on. Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Yeah. So with that sort of early grief cycle for you of, of being rooted in denial, when you talk about other types of grief throughout your life, then 

Jan: mm-hmm.

Patti: Loss of relationships, loss of pet, loss of job, did you have. Similar re reactions and responses to grief and all the various types of grief in your life. Was it always sort of denial until you learned something else that you kind of went towards? 

RIck: Well, again, preparing myself for this time together with both of you is that actually when.

I don't know if anybody has talked about Elizabeth Kubler Ross's stages of grief. 

Jan: Yeah, I did a little bit. Mm-hmm. 

RIck: Okay. Is that, uh, this too is a, you know, part of the unfolding in all of our lives. So this is the good news, right? It's like, oh, there's something new to explore and, and to think about. I actually did, because this is a part of my timeline, is that then the next four years my.

Mom and sister and I moved to our small town, and I, you know, those four years, uh, somewhat was thriving. Now, I had not done this original grief work again, but I'm going forward. But my first, so if you think of Elizabeth Kubler Ross, the stages of grief, uh, the first one is denial, which I've done well and.

Then it is anger, which I, my personalities, I'm not an angry guy, but this is where the angry part of me popped up. Again, I don't think, Jan, you've even heard this. 'cause this has, I've been thinking about this and. You know, the bargaining, which ebbs and flows, and then the depression, which is what you were saying, and then the acceptance.

And then I, I had a sixth one for sure about the meaning of it. But when I was 14 years old, my mom announced to me that, uh, she'd been dating my, uh, well, was going to be my stepdad, but the night she told me. That she was going to marry John. Uh, you cannot make this up. My stepdad's name is John Smith, so you just can't even put that up.

So the night she told me though, I had. A fit. I was, you know, that wasn't my personality, but I was upset. And my sister and I just recently talked about this because in our house, 

Patti: interesting. 

RIck: I, I didn't know this, but she told my sister first in her room, and then my sister was kinda listening through the wall as she's telling me.

And so my sister. Was younger. I don't know how old was she at that point? She was about 11 and, and so she just accepted it. She had a lot of thoughts and feelings about it, but that she didn't express 'em. But oh, I did and I was really mad about it and I was thinking about that as I was preparing for this.

And I thought, well, that's interesting, Rick. That I would say was my first time to really be angry. My dad died and now, um. I've gotta deal with this, 

Jan: right? The family's changing now. 

RIck: Yeah. The system is changing, and I was okay with the system that we had established over these four years, again, because I've shoved down the grief of my father.

Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Shoved that down, put my head down, went back to school, plugged along, and, and I'm, life is good. Uh, this is a funny tagline. I used to say that those four years after my dad died, so talk about denial is that when we moved to our home in our small town is that was Camelot, that is rooted in the early sixties in our country.

When John. Kennedy was president of the United States. Mm-hmm. That's what I'm referring to. It was came alot to me. It was. Yeah. And so this was disrupting the pattern and I was not happy about it at all. And so I was thinking about that with my, my timeline of, of, of experiencing anger still detached from my grief over the loss of my dad.

I really think that. Feel some embarrassment because so many people have such a hard time with that. But that was my coping strategy. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: But I think that later on in your life you did do some grieving around your dead. Yes. And it was real grieving, uh, rather than, you know, being angry and then just kind of getting on with life.

RIck: Mm-hmm. Yes. And that, and then later on in my life, yes. That, that was able to really sit with the loss, feel the, the grief, and, um. It was incredible and, and transformative. It's one of those pre and post kind of experiences. And then the last thing I'll say again in my, my saga of grief that was really significant is then when I was 35 years old, um, my mom died of cancer and that was a significant loss.

Even though 35 is not young, I consider myself young. Married, had two kids, and, um. Four and, uh, one and a half and a baby on the way. And my mom was diagnosed, uh, with an aggressive breast cancer and died in six months. 

Patti: Wow. 

RIck: And. That I was also a, Jim will appreciate this, working full-time, uh, working on a doctoral degree and had a part-time private practice that you read about Patty and went through this.

And so when my mom died, I then went into, which would be that stage four, I think that was a combination of my mom and my unprocessed emotions with my dad. Uh, I went into a depressive episode for a couple of years. 

Patti: Hmm. 

RIck: I continued to do all those things and I don't know how I did it, but I, I did it, um, because I put my head down and just took care of business, which is not healthy.

So as people are listening to this, this is not how you want to grieve. 

Jan: Yeah. So I was gonna ask you a question, Rick. Do you think that young kids. Really know how to grieve. I mean, like you're talking when you were 10 and then 14, or you know, I mean, your grandmother died, then your, your father died. And, uh, you know, do you think kids know how to grieve or, uh, is it something that your mother or father should have been talking to you about?

Or, or do you know what I'm, I just kind of wanna get your 

RIck: feeling. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I definitely think kids feel it. And again, that's where every, every child is different. Um, and I, I know that it was in there for me. I know it again, because of talking to my sister and how. How she dealt with that. But yes, that's, that's an unfortunate thing that our, our mothers didn't support us in our feelings of loss and talking to it now, I, I, I think that might be better today.

And then, you know, the research now that was not there at that time around attachment theory and what we know about that because parents get depressed, they withdraw. That's how I think of my mom. 

Jan: Yeah. 

RIck: And then, and then they're, and then it's an experience of neglect for kids. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

RIck: And so, uh, 

Jan: and ca kids kind of, I know, get stuck in one of the stages, either angry all the time mm-hmm.

Or really depressed or hyperactive all the time, you know, if something happens. If you're looking at the stages, don't you think they, they kind of get stuck or arrested somewhere? 

RIck: Mm-hmm. Yes. And then like, I was arrested in the denial element of it, so my 10-year-old self, you know? Mm-hmm. It's, it's like, and then I, I shared that with you, so yes, I absolutely think so.

And, um, after my mother died was when I, uh, and went through that and, and that grief. And then when I, as I began to come out of that was when then I was introduced to the work of, uh, PML. And that 

Patti: mm-hmm. 

RIck: Brought me into the next part of my life, which I was able to go back through an experiential process and, uh, really grieve my father's funeral.

Mm-hmm. And, um, it's an interesting kind of experiential process because of the mind's eye work. With re-parenting of historical selves, I was able to drop into, uh, that scene of when my dad died. And the therapist, uh, was brilliant who guided me through that. And she created a gestalt type of experience and said that she had created a scene and we were gonna step into the funeral home 'cause I'd never really grieved really 

Jan: nice.

RIck: She said up. There's a casket here and I want you to walk up to the casket, your adult self, walk in with your 10-year-old self. And, um, I pretty much collapsed, cried. Mm-hmm. And, and really I think, 

Jan: sounds like you were ready for it. 

RIck: Yeah. But I was ready for it. And, um, I'd not thought of this before, but it was the incomplete response.

The work appeared being in somatic work. 'cause it had been stored in my body since I was 10. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

RIck: And. I was in my forties when this happened. 

Jan: Right. 

RIck: So. 

Jan: Right. That makes sense. And a lot of sense. And I mean, so that has to influence how you work with your clients now when you're, uh, a therapist and some of our teaching too.

RIck: It, it does. And I think that was one of the things that all counseling is, uh, grief work. 

Jan: All counseling? No. Say more. Say more about that. That's very 

RIck: well, because people are coming in with whatever they're presenting problem is, but it is about, um, uh, 

Jan: loss. Loss. Some sort of loss. Yeah. 

RIck: Yeah. 

Patti: Letting go loss.

Yeah. 

RIck: Yeah. And so whatever it is. Does that make sense as I say that? Yes. Because everything 

Jan: changes and ends right. 

RIck: Yes. Uh, it's funny you would say that is that, uh, uh, one of the things that, uh, I was gonna mention in resources was the work of David Rico and, uh, the five givens and everything changes and ends and, uh, things don't go according to plans.

I would not planned, would've scripted out. The story that's unfolded in my life and that when I think about it is that. Is life is not always fair. That's not fair. 

Jan: And pain is a part of life, right? 

RIck: And pain is a part of life and it is out of our pain if we so choose that. Uh, we can then create meaning, which is the acceptance mm-hmm.

From La Ross. And, and I really emphasize the meaning of that because we know that, uh. This is a, a life cycle that we all experience. So I always think as I work with people, uh, that we're talking about whatever the loss is. And then the hope, because hope is really important in grief work is that, uh, you're not being cavalier, but that you're offering hope.

And that's why it's important. As people grieve their losses, whatever they are, as, as you all have talked about in your previous, what, what I've shared today is, and I do mean this, is because I've chosen, is to make meaning out of all these things that I've shared with you all. Uh, it's not always easy and I would prefer not to because, you know, if I could have just stayed in that denial.

But, uh, 

Jan: don't we all wish we could do that? 

RIck: Yeah. 

Patti: What's, what's really interesting. Hearing you talk about grief and hearing you talk about grief in this. This timeline of your life, essentially. I've not thought of grief in that way before, so this has been really interesting to listen to you talk about it in, in that frame.

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Right. Where it's, and, and what really stuck out is when you, you talked about your mother dying, which I would argue 35 is young, um, for you to be going through that, but that you sort of talked about like your mother dying. Moved you into the next stage of grief as well as with your father, and, and so that in this way, what I was hearing from what you were sharing was that.

Your life was, has been a complete timeline of grief and that, you know, like when, when we talk about grief, at least from my perspective, is you think I, I've tended to think of like individual incidents of like, you lose this person or this thing or whatever, and there's a grief. Bubble, let's call it, for lack of a better term for that.

And then there's something else that happens and there's a grief for that and there's a grief for that. But what you're talking about is almost like this continuation of grief and as things as loss happens throughout your life mm-hmm. It sort of joins and while you have grief in different ways for each event.

Mm-hmm. But it sort of joins the bigger sort of momentum of grief as it moves through your life or doesn't move through your life depending on what work you are or are not doing. I think that that's really fascinating and mm-hmm. When I sat back and listened to it from that, that perspective, I was able to sort of see that in myself of like seeing that timeline from a larger scale and where I might be in my overarching timeline of grief as a human of loss and learning and, and progressing.

Jan: You know what else I was thinking, Patty, along those lines, is that. If you do some work on yourself or go to therapy 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And you work with your loss, your ability to move through it, like the stages of it. Yeah. And when we're listening to Rick and he's talking about when he, as he got to be 35 and on, he, he started learning in his older age how to grieve more.

Completely. Fully. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure if I should say that. Mm-hmm. But it is because many people get arrested at one of the stages. I've just never thought of this either. And really part of grieving is being able to move through them and, and complete, you said the response, it's like a threat response, a loss, uh, you know, is a, and you can't, you know, you can't get away from it and you can't decide to fight it.

Some people do fight it, some people try to get away from it. But ultimately to complete it, it has to do with something, like you said, Rick is being able to fully, um, embody it, uh, yeah. Fully and it makes a difference in your life. 

RIck: Mm-hmm. And that as we're talking about it, I'm actually going, um. Through some grief right now that's different.

And the reason why I'm gonna share this is that I actually feel like I'm embodying it this time. So again, from my 8-year-old self to obviously my 10 is dramatic, to my 14-year-old, to my 30 5-year-old, to this 40-year-old who really began to heal some of this work and but is that my wife and I are selling our house.

Patti: Hmm. 

RIck: That we have lived in for 27 years, and it has been, and thinking about, you know, the loss of this, uh, my children grew up in this home, the, the significance of this home and that as we're. Packing and doing things that I really j and am embodying it, like I'm pausing. I'm taking everything in. I'm feeling the loss of this home.

These yes memories. 

Jan: It's like a little bit of shock though. You just, you know. Mm-hmm. You know, that's, that's hard. Again, it's like everything changes and ends and you're like, uh, uh, uh, yeah. 

RIck: That is my tagline is everything changes and ends. Yeah. And just breathing into that, which is very much a Buddhist principle, the impermanence of life.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is what we're talking about 

Jan: is, which is what we're talking about. 

RIck: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jan: So Rick, I'm really curious. Thank you for all those, your stories and talking, being vulnerable. Uh, I'm wondering about how you work with your clients then, because I mean, even some of this is appropriate for.

The work you did where that therapist brought you into the funeral and you got to mm-hmm. It was more of a, a gestalt kind of thing. It was a reenactment, or it could be a psychodrama, but all of those. So how do you work with your clients on this? 

RIck: Mm-hmm. 

Jan: I mean, I kind of know, but I'm, I'm asking you.

RIck: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Well, I don't know. So 

Jan: I wanna 

Patti: know. 

Jan: So Patty, this is for you. 

RIck: Okay. The first thing I'll say is that I think, uh, um, mindfulness practice, I think letting people, uh, teaching people to be present. In the moment, you know what I was saying about my house? I mean, I really am, um, trying to be mindful, feel the feelings not be in denial.

Uh, so feel the sadness, feel the loss, reflect, and all that. So teaching people just how to be present in the moment and then as we understand their. Storyline and particularly, uh, I, I said all counseling is grief. Uh, this is a quote from P Melody that I think is a really great one. She says, really, therapy is, um, facing reality, which is what I think I do with people, uh, to the best of my ability is help people to face their reality.

To grieve, this is actually her term is to grieve and then to move forward. And so that, um. As I help people, uh, sit in their suffering, um, is that in whatever that might be, whatever type of loss. And then in the work that I do with people is that I try to help them get their story straight. Which is to understand this, there are multiple ways you can do that.

Um, but in this story timeline, if we're talking about what we've talked about today, and then the opportunity to step into these scenes and help people to grieve that which they need to grieve, and so depending on their story. It can be something from their developmental timeline like myself, or it can be their adult self.

Uh, a divorce, um, huge area of loss, giving up the dream. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, of being happily married, uh, from the vow to the day they die. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. 

RIck: And we know that. 50% of folks, that does not happen. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. 

RIck: The loss of a child, that would be the most difficult. I would just acknowledge that for anybody that would, again, be listening to this, that is the most profound.

And, um, that's a whole talk in itself is, is the loss of, of children, the loss of a job. Jan talking about. 

Jan: Retiring. Retiring. 

RIck: Retiring, 

Jan: grieving and 

RIck: loss. Huge. Yeah. So from loss, that's a whole category. Retirement, which is another thing that I love my job and right now I don't plan to retire, but am moving toward that.

And that's a whole, that's a whole story in itself as well. And, uh, Jan, I don't know if you've talked about that idea of, you know, retirement, but, uh, that's huge. Patty. You're in the height of your career and in it, so 

Jan: it's like, whoa, I don't know about, 

Patti: I'd like to be farther ahead if I'm in the height of my career.

RIck: I would, at least that's what I would make of you own your own business. You're the famous Patty, uh, for biz magic. So anyway. So, um, but in any of those, it's the ability to move through it. That's, that's the key is Yes. Is in whatever way is moving through that. You let that come up, you sit with it if it's through tears or again, it could be anger, which would be very appropriate.

Uh, so in the body. And in the words and all that, but you move that through you mm-hmm. To come then to the other side and, uh, depending on what the situation is. And so, again, I could talk more about that, but I won't. But I, I think it's just that mindful, this sounds easy, but it's not. 

Jan: Oh, no. Well, now I answered my own question.

Uh, for kids, they have no direction on where they're going with it. You know, they're gonna drop into. Depression, sadness, or they're gonna drop into anger. Mm-hmm. Or they're gonna just be busy and pretend it's denial. I mean, just think of all that, uh, because there's no kind of, uh, roadmap for them. 

Patti: Mm-hmm.

Jan: Unless a parent or a mother helps. And it could be a parent. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. 

Jan: And, and so when we get older, I mean, that's what I think some therapeutic, um, realms of helping people doing pieces of work is really important to help us move through. It is like what you said. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, is, is important or, you know, what I think is that sometimes what'll happen is people will get sick if they have a lot of losses, and they really, I think it manifests physically in their body.

Patti: I 

RIck: agree 

Patti: with that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

RIck: Oh, yes. 

Patti: I really love this idea. You, you really have my brain spinning here in like a really positive way of looking at like all counseling as grief and looking at, I mean, if we really look at it, if we really stop and talk about it, the idea of like even somebody who's struggling with something, I mean, in some way it's the grief of a loss of an expectation that you've created.

And like while you were talking, I was like. Some things I'm working on with my therapist. I was like, oh my goodness, I need to grieve X, Y, Z, and that's what that is. And I was like taking notes as you were writing for my next therapy session. 

Jan: That's right. 

Patti: But, but you know, I mean, I think that it's a, when you, it gives you a new perspective in which to look at the way that you are processing things in your life and to look at things, I feel like, mm-hmm.

We have compassion for grief, right? Mm-hmm. And, and sometimes people struggle with having compassion for other things that they might deal with in their own mental health, but if you really look at everything as a form of grief in one way or another, that sure elicits a lot more compassion for everything that you're struggling with.

And I think there's some power in that. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and for those who struggle with finding support, is, is if you, if you can find that compassion, you, you look at it like. Well, what if it all is some form of grief in one way or another? Man that makes you wanna really hold yourself? Mm-hmm. You know?

Mm-hmm. 

Jan: And that's why what you were just saying, this Buddha Buddhist principle in some ways from John. Um, is it David Rico? His writings? 

RIck: Yeah. 

Jan: Uh, I found that book and it changed my life and it is just kind of letting go is that everything changes and ends in life and pain is a part of life rather than fighting it all.

And uh, I think that's what people do is they get stuck somewhere where they're fighting it. And it's so necessary to get through it. So, I dunno, I guess we're saying everybody needs to go to therapy. 

Patti: Yeah. I mean that's really the, the, the end all be all with all of our things is you could use a little support, maybe, maybe check it out, you know?

Um Yeah, yeah. But or 

Jan: even group work. 

Patti: Or even group work. And I think. Even stop and think about if, if your life, if, if, if grief is a timeline in your life, where are you at in your grief timeline? 

Jan: I like that. That's right. 

And 

Patti: what can you do mm-hmm. To recognize where you might be at and, and take steps to move to whatever.

And, and though, right. We know that the stages aren't linear and all of that. 

Jan: Yes. 

Patti: But if we look at it in a linear way through your life of like. Okay, I'm, I, I see that I'm in anger now. Let's, how can I move into the next space? How can I get myself to acceptance in a, in a compassionate, in a loving way that's not badgering myself for spending 30 years in, in denial or, or, you know, anger, but 

Jan: mm-hmm.

Patti: How can I take myself to the next place? And I think even that. In that mindfulness space is a really great place to start. Mm-hmm. Um, if you don't wanna do therapy or can't afford therapy, you know, because, because being able to afford a therapy is a privilege and that's a reality, right? Definitely. So we can say that, but not everybody is, it's not accessible to everybody.

So what are ways that you can in yourself find compassion for yourself and where you're at and what you're going through, and take yourself through community, through connection, through your own mind. To the next stage in some way through reading some of these books that are great resources. 

Jan: Right, right.

Um, yeah, there's a lot of self-help books out there, including mine. 

Patti: Yes. 

RIck: Yeah. Oh yeah, 

Patti: yeah. Yeah. This is so great, Rick. I mean, I thank you so much for sharing all of this and, and sharing so personally of it and giving new ideas to, to grief and, and the way we're living and, and that it's just something new to think about that I appreciate.

Yes. 

Jan: Thank you partner. Uh, I really appreciate your view on it and bringing those insights in. 

RIck: Mm-hmm. Well, and um, that thank you both because it, it got me thinking about like a couple of these things. I had not. Link together. And again, I wanna encourage folks because that's what this is about. We're talking about the unfolding of our life and you know, hearing both of you share things previously got me thinking about this, which was important for me, which again, is hope no matter where we're at that, that we can move forward.

And I, I always. Say this. I I, I don't wanna sound cavalier because these things that a lot of folks are, are really individuals, are, are dealing with, are profound. But I know for. You know, it's just important to be able to know that you can, that that's what I really believe is, is no matter what it is, you can move through it.

Jan: Yes. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Thank 

Patti: you. 

RIck: Well, thank you. It's been good to be with you both. 

Jan: Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends. Subscribe and leave a review. 

Patti: And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional.

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest. 

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 92nd thing you've learned in your life. 

Jan: You can find links to both of those over at our website at 

Patti: things my mother forgot to mention.com or in the show notes.

Thank you.