Mama Trauma with Stephanie Baker

In this episode, we're joined by Stephanie Baker, a licensed trauma counselor, Army veteran, and EMDR therapist who knows firsthand that birth doesn't always go according to plan. What started as a near-perfect pregnancy took a sharp turn, and what followed was a crash course in things nobody had prepared her for.

Jan also pulls back the curtain on her own birth story, one she rarely shares. Let's just say it involved more than one emergency, more than one surgery, and a phone call from her mother that was... a lot.

We laugh. We wince. We say "oh my God" a lot. Because sometimes that's the only appropriate response.

Here's what we covered:

• The warning signs during pregnancy that are easy to dismiss as normal
• The grief of losing the birth experience you planned for, and why that grief is valid
• Why guilt and shame sneak in even when none of it was your fault
• The isolation that can come after a complicated birth, and why community matters more than most people realize
• How to choose your birth team and actually feel safe with them
• Doulas, breastfeeding pressure, and asking for help without feeling like a burden
• The generational thread of moms who carried their own birth losses without ever having words for them

Birth is wild, unpredictable, and body-hijacking, and someone really should have warned us. That's why we're here.

About Stephanie: Stephanie Baker is a licensed trauma counselor and coach out of Mason, Ohio, who runs her own practice called Change Heals, where she helps clients untangle the kind of pain most of us were taught to just power through. She's a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor, EMDR-trained, an Army veteran who served in Iraq, and she's a certified trainer and a member of the leadership group at the Healing Our Core Issues Institute.

If you've read Gifts from a Challenging Childhood, you've actually already met a piece of her work — one of her original techniques is in there, in the 2025 edition. So she's not just teaching the model. She's helping shape it.

Stephanie is the therapist a lot of us wish we'd had earlier. She's deeply relational — human first, clinician second — and she shows up in the room as a real person, not a role. What she does so beautifully is help clients understand themselves in ways they were never given permission to before. The patterns, the protective parts, the why underneath the behavior — she helps her clients see all of it with curiosity instead of shame. She works with people healing developmental trauma — the stuff our mothers definitely forgot to mention- and she does it with humor, heart, and zero pretense.

Stephanie’s Links:
Stephanie’s Website
Intensive Workshops
Stephanie’s Instagram

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Things Podcast Ep 27 - Mama Trauma - 5:18:26, 4.12 PM

Jan: Welcome to Things My Mother Forgot to Mention. The podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author turned rogue storyteller, here to talk openly about the body, aging, and all the "wait, what?" moments of womanhood. 

Patti: And I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world, and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things My Mother Forgot to Mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, "Wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me?" 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty, two outspoken, curious, outrageous women, as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging, health, and quite simply being a woman.

From rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning to mental health, perimenopause, and scalp cancer. Yes, really. 

Patti: Nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. 

Patti: Hello, Jan. 

Jan: Hello, Patty. That's a bright, cheery voice. 

Patti: You know, I always get so much joy when we do these, so.

Well, happy Thursday. Happy Thursday. 

Jan: Yes. Um, how are you? I'm doing pretty good today. Things are all c- coming together. 

Patti: Good. You've got a- And how about you? I'm good. You have a knee replacement coming up pretty soon. Two weeks from today. I know, which is when this episode will come out, so. Oh, 

Jan: great. I probably won't be listening to it, but anyway.

Probably 

Patti: not. That's fair. I'll allow it. 

Jan: So I understand we have a guest who, uh, is with us today. We do. 

Patti: Yeah. S- We have Stephanie Baker, and we're gonna talk today about, uh, her experiences with a traumatic birth experience, and I think we'll chat with you a little bit about yours, and, um, but I'm gonna start by reading a little bit about Stephanie.

Great. Stephanie Baker is a licensed trauma counselor and coach out of Mason, Ohio, who runs her own practice called Change Heals, where she helps clients untangle the kind of pain most of us were taught to just power through. She's a licensed professional clinician counselor, EMDR trained, an Army veteran who served in Iraq, and she's a certified trainer and member of the leadership group at the Healing Our Core Issues Institute.

If you've read Gifts From a Challenging Childhood, written by our own Jan Bergstrom, you've actually already met a piece of her work. One of her original techniques is in there in the 2025 edition. So she's not just teaching the model, she's helping shape it. Stephanie is the therapist a lot of us wish we'd had earlier.

She's deeply relational, human first, clinician second, and she shows up in the room as a real person, not a role. What she does so beautifully is help clients understand themselves in ways they were never given permission to before. The patterns, the protective parts, the why underneath the behavior, she helps her clients see all of it with curiosity instead of shame.

She works with people healing developmental trauma, the stuff our mothers definitely forgot to mention. And she does it with humor, heart, and zero pretense. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us, Stephanie. Welcome. 

Jan: That's- Thank you ... great bio there, Stephanie. I love it. 

Patti: Thank you. Thank you 

Stephanie: guys 

Patti: for having 

Stephanie: me.

Patti: Yeah. We're so excited to have you. So, um, what... Talk to us a little bit about you ha- one, 

Stephanie: how many kids do you have? One child? Biologically, I have one child. I do have two stepdaughters that I count as my own, but they did not come from my body. Mm-hmm. So I birthed one. Yeah. And how old are the two stepdaughters you have?

My stepdaughters are 27 and 24. Oh, wow. And then my son, um, who is biologically mine, is, uh, nine. And do the two stepdaughters live with you too or not? When they were younger. Um, they're- Okay ... now living their own lives. Um, but they lived with us part-time between mom and- Mm-hmm ... their mom and my husband, their dad.

Great. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. Well, I know you've joined us today because w- as you said, we're talking about mama trauma. And, uh, you know, not everybody has the same experience having a baby, that's for sure. Not at all. And, you know, some women I've talked to before, it's easy-peasy. They had no problem, and some other women, that's not always the case.

And so I believe we've had you here, and, uh, maybe I'll say a little bit about my experience. But- Yeah ... my experience was all of 35 years ago, so it's a little bit longer ago. 

Stephanie: But like you said earlier, it's something you never forget. It's... 

Jan: As... Amen to that. So. 

Patti: Yeah. So what did you, um, what, what did your mother ever share with you about giving birth and being pregnant and labor?

What was that like for you? Or did you go into it being like, "Oh, let's see what happens." 

Stephanie: So my mom, um, so before I was born, my mom had... What the story I was told was my mom had a stillborn at about five months. Ooh. That's all I knew. Um, and I honestly, I think that's all she knew, right? Because, again, 44 years ago when she had the stillborn, I don't think they had the resources, the knowledge, the information, or the compassionate care for the mom- Right

the same way that they do now. 

Yeah. 

Um, and so what I knew is that she had a stillborn at five months, and then a year later, I come along, and her birth with me was her, out of the other... So she had three more after me. Um, her birth with me, from the stories I've been told, it w- was the hardest because of her previous loss.

They had her, like, bedridden. They just wanted to make sure everything went well once she went into labor, and so, like, she couldn't get up and walk around to make everything progress. Um, so that was the hardest part for her, was kind of being bedridden with it. 

Mm-hmm. 

And I mean, all in all, I had a good birth.

Um, everything went fine, healthy, delivered on my mom's birthday, by the way. I'll add that- ... little caveat in there, which was really a... has always been a cool thing for us, to share a birthday. Um, but then she had three more babies, and the way she tells it is each birth got easier and easier. They got quicker and quicker, and she just started popping them out.

Um, like- ... I think her labor with me was, like, five hours, and it got shorter each time. Wow. And so, um, I mean, to my knowledge, she did it all without any, like, an epidural or any pain meds, so that was my intent going in, was I wanna do this as natural as possible. I'm not going to oppose help if needed. Right.

I wanted to try and, and be as, just natural as possible. Um, you know, when you go in and you talk to your doctors when you find out you're pregnant and tell them that's your plan, and they're like, "Okay," and there's not really much to talk about when you're really, really early on. Um, so yeah, that was about the information I had going in.

Now, obviously, I knew a lot of other women who had had traumatic experiences and things like that. But from my mom, she told me what she knew and what she experienced, and that was what she had. Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. So what was your pregnancy like? 

Stephanie: Hmm. So the first six months, Patty, was beautiful. Really? You're kidding me.

I had what I would call an ideal pregnancy until I didn't. Um, for the first six months it was like I had this belly, a well, a smally growing belly, and I barely ever had any... I mean, I didn't have morning sickness. What I ended up having was, like, at around 8:00 at night I felt a little gross and I just wanted to lay down and watch TV, which for everything I've heard with moms and pregnancy- Right

it was, like, so, so, so lucky. Um, it got to a point where I was like, "I wish sometimes I could just take this belly off and kind of just set it to the side- ... and go help my husband do the yard work," 'cause I'm not allowed to do all that stuff when I'm pregnant, because he was doing, like, heavy lifting and things.

And I was like, "And then I'll just put it back on when I'm done." I know. Because my body felt fine. I felt capable. I just wasn't allowed to do the things, right? 

Yeah. 

And so yeah, the first six months were great. Um, and then one day I was like, it was like a day away from, um, that, that appointment you have where you do all the glucose stuff for, um, gestational diabetes, and my calves and my ankles just started to swell really bad.

Hmm. 

And, you know, I was on the phone with my mom and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Mom, look." And I was, you know, video calling her and I told her, I showed her my ankles, and like I had no, no difference between like my knee to my, to my ankle. Oh my goodness. It was like the same size. Wow. Mm-hmm. Just so swollen. And in my mind I'm thinking, "Okay, finally pregnancy is affecting me," right?

Mm-hmm. 

Women, their ankles swell, all that stuff sounds normal to me from everything that I have heard. And my mom kind of went, "When are you seeing the doctor? Tomorrow? Okay, good. You need to make sure you let them know." Like, she, she kind of just had the little bit of this panic and I don't know- Yeah ... if she was making connections or not.

We never really talked about it. But I remember her and my colleagues the next day at work being like, "You need to go talk to your doctor." Nobody ever said words around, "This is a s- this is concerning." 

Right. They 

just had that tone, right? 

Jan: Stephanie, how old were you when you were having, um, when you were pregnant?

Stephanie: 34. 

Jan: Okay. 'Cause you know, like- So I was older. 

Stephanie: Yeah, 

Jan: you 

Stephanie: were an older mom. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, sorry. Yes, so I was definitely an older mom. Not quite, uh, geriatric- Geriatric ... which I would be considered now if I had a baby. Um, but yeah, on the older end. And so when I went to the doctor they took me in, did my blood pressure, sat you down, have you drink that whatever stuff, and I'm just in the waiting room waiting.

And they call me back and my doctor says- "Did you drive yourself here today?" I was like, "Yeah, I came from work." And she's like, "Okay. I want you to get in the car, and I want you to go straight to the hospital" which was, like, about 15 minutes away, "and your husband's gonna meet you there." And I'm just like- What?

And she also, not wanting to induce panic, wasn't telling me a lot. So I perfectly am fine, get in my car, drive to the hospital, go, they want me to check myself in. And then I get put on, uh, that magnesium drip, which I don't know if either one of you have any knowledge or experience about that- No. No ... but that is horrible.

And then I felt like death. Mm-hmm. 

Jan: Was it an IV magnesium, 

Stephanie: or was it, like, um, through the mouth? No, IV. Okay. Um, because my, apparently my blood pressure was skyrocketed. Mm-hmm. I had preeclampsia. Oh. Oh. And so I was basically- Mm ... gonna be hospitalized until the baby came. Now, that could have been, you know, the rest of my pregnancy, the, the next few months that I should have had, or the next day, right?

Um, because with preeclampsia, there's not really a threat to the baby. It's more the threat to the mom. Yeah. Uh-huh. Um, what we ended up- What is pre- preeclampsia? It's the blood pressure. Your blood pressure skyrockets to where you could have a stroke. Oh, that- oh, boy And the only way to bring the blood pressure down if, if medications and things aren't working is to take the baby out.

Oh. So when I got to the hospital, they put me on that medicine. It dropped my blood pressure so quick that I ended up throwing up and felt like death- Oh ... because I finally was dropping back down to normal. I was able to maintain, um, a decent blood pressure for about five days. So my son- In the hospital?

You stayed in the hospital those five days? I stayed in the hospital, yep. Um, and they finally got to a point where they're like, "We've got to get the baby out because we can't get this to come down, and it's been too long, and we're afraid you'll have a stroke." And you're six months in at this point. I'm six months in.

Wow. He was born at 28 weeks and five days. Wow. So that was the five days I was in the hospital. Um, and of course, once he was born, um, you know, emergency C-section, everything, blood pressure went back down. Everything was maintained and, and he thankfully was a very, very healthy baby. They gave me shots when I was in the hospital that helped his lungs develop.

Yeah. Mm. Um, and so he came out breathing on his own at- Great ... which is the biggest concern at that age- Mm-hmm ... um, and did really, really well and just proceeded to grow and bloom and be amazing from there. Yeah. Um, we had some other trauma which isn't specifically related to the birth. He, um, about a week after he was born, he developed a scalding, what they call scalding staph.

Mm. So it's a infection that basically- 80% of his body became covered in burns 

Patti: Oh my God. Oh, no. And they, 

Stephanie: they have to treat it like they do at Shriners for burn victims. And the amazing angel nurses that I had, um, one of them was doing training with the burn unit, and she was, like, his head nurse, and she was treating him.

And so he was wrapped up like a mummy, and I told my husband, like, "He will never be a mummy for Halloween." Like, this will be such a triggering thing for me, right? Um, and he, he has one scar- Wow ... and it is actually not even from his burns. It's actually from, um, some scar tissue from one of the, uh, IV s- spots that he had in his foot.

Jan: Wow. 

Stephanie: Um, but it's amazing. Um- It is amazing ... horrible to live through, hugely traumatic at the time. 

Yeah. Um, 

and the big, the big piece of this is that what I found out, um, going forward after my son was born and things is that my mom had preeclampsia. 

Jan: I was gonna say, it's just like what happened to your mom, right?

Yes. But they didn't know it back then, right? Yeah? 

Stephanie: They didn't know it back then. She didn't get to meet the baby. There, I mean, it was just a lot of very, a very different world. Yeah. Right. And again, I think a lot of information she didn't know. But again, just not having anybody, like, name these things for you, right?

Yeah. When you're in that moment was very disorienting and discombobulating to, to not understand what was happening until it was happening. Yeah. Right. Um- Yeah. 

Patti: I mean, I think it's smart that, that she just sort of calmly was like, "So you should drive to the hospital now." I mean, that was my- Right ... my sister-in-law had preeclampsia with my niece, and so that was my first thought as well when you said that.

I was like, "That sounds like preeclampsia," because it, it, that's w- a very common symptom of that, and it is so scary. That's so scary. Now, do 

Jan: some people actually live through preeclampsia and take the baby to term and have the baby, or does it d- um, Stephanie, do they usually have to have a C-section emergency?

Stephanie: Do you know? I, I don't know the statistics on it. Mm. But I know, I mean, their intention in the hospital was to keep me medicated- To keep you ... as long as possible ... until you could carry the baby. 

Patti: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's what people want. My sister-in-law didn't have a C-section with my niece, but she was a preemie, my niece.

So- Did they, 

Jan: did she have to deliver soon, or she- I can't 

Patti: remem- I feel like she had it for a little bit, and I think they must have maintained her. Um, and I also don't believe she was in the hospital the entire time that she had it. Um, and so this would be 18 years ago. My niece is, like, 18. Mm. So, um, but definitely my niece was premature- Mm-hmm

quite a bit. And so, 'cause I remember she was, like, the size of a Sprite can. That was the, the joke at the time is, like, she was the size- Right ... of a Sprite can. And she now is, like, I think because of that, you know, she's like- Just five feet or something. You know, she's definitely a little stunted in like her size and stuff like that.

But, um, yeah. So some people, I think, I don't know if they go to term. It would be interesting to research and learn more about, but I do know that they don't all have emergency C sects- sections necessarily. Wow. Right. 

Jan: Wow. Yeah. So, well, I mean, I'm not laughing about this, but where you said that you wanted to be able to take the baby off and put her to the side and go work in, in the garden- Yeah, I had, you know-

and, and I guess it kind of happened sooner than you realized. Yeah. That's horrible. Just like, oh. 

Stephanie: Yeah, you know how like certain moms- Be careful what we wish for. Yes, exactly. Some moms get to that point where they're like, um, you know, they're gonna evict the baby. Evict. Yeah. You're out of here. Mine, mine just terminated his lease early.

Right. Right. He's like, "I'm good. 

Jan: I'm ready." How, how much did he weigh 

Patti: when he was born, Stephanie? Two pounds and five ounces. Oh, my gosh. So size of a Sprite can. Yes. Yeah. 

Stephanie: When you said that- Oh ... I was like, 

Patti: yeah, yeah. Yeah, we hit that track. We've used 

Stephanie: that analogy, but that is- He was so tiny. And- Yeah ... like, his, his arms and his legs were like literally like my finger.

Yeah. Um, they, they were so skinny. We said he looked like a chicken wing where you ate the bone, you ate it down to the bone. Oh, oh. And he was just a little chicken wing. Um, he's so tiny. Wow. And his skin was almost kind of that luminescent. It- Wow ... it hadn't quite formed and shaped yet. Um, but he, I mean, he was opening his eyes.

He was- That's amazing ... he had, was on oxygen 'cause they wanted to help give his lungs rest. Yeah. But he didn't have to be. He was breathing on his own. Um, and you know, I, I hear all the time that preemies often are smaller, stunted. Mm-hmm. And my son is like, his height is off the charts on- Oh, nice. Yeah. So he, he was pretty much caught up by everything size and development-wise by six months, which was amazing.

Jan: That's amazing. Um, 

Stephanie: so- Wow. So you decided not to have any more children, is that- That, my husband, that was so traumatic for him, that was, it was terrifying, the thought of having another child. Yeah. 'Cause he almost, he... And of course the timing of all of this was two months after he lost his father. 

Mm. 

Oh. Oh, wow.

And he almost was losing his child and his wife. Mm-hmm. Mm. And so that was, and still is, a huge, um, wounding for him. Yeah. Um, and what we found out after my son was born, which we would not have known, um, there was no way to know, is that there were gases building up in the umbilical cord. 

Ooh. Ooh. 

And so if he hadn't been delivered when he was- he would have gone into Stillbirth kind of coming- He, he could have

mind If there would've been some sort of traumatic, you- we've gotta deliver him now, and if I wasn't at the hospital, he probably wouldn't have made it. Wow. Mm. Um, so the fact that I went into preeclampsia and that drove the birth actually probably saved his life. 

Patti: Oh, my. And that so quickly that you happened to have a doctor's appointment the next day, and that you had people that were like, "Uh, this- So many things aligned

should like..." Yep. Yeah. You know? So such a blessing in disguise. I mean, a lot of people might have just sat with that- Mm ... and been like, "Oh, well, you know, hey, I finally am feeling my birthness," and, you know- Yes. ... hung out for another week or something. Exactly. Yeah. I'm 

like, "It's six months, I should start feeling pregnant."

Yeah. Um, but- So with the exception of that, you kinda had a pretty ideal pregnancy- Exactly ... through the whole way until the very end there, the last week. Exactly. Until that traumatic 

Stephanie: birth, right. Yeah. Yeah. And what they told me after he was born is that there's, there's no... Like, it's not genetic. Just 'cause my mom had it didn't mean I would have it.

Oh, interesting. Um, and you can have it once and never have it again, which is what my mom did, right? She had one and then had four healthy babies. 

Nice. Um, 

and th- there's no real way for them, to my knowledge at least back when my son was born nine years ago, there's no real way to determine if it, if it's gonna happen or predict it.

There's just treatment. Yeah. Um. Hm. And I think for me it was struggling with the idea of the fact that I was grieving the last few months of my pregnancy and, and grieving having a normal birth, right? Mm. Yeah. And, you know, my husband would say, you know, "Well, most women would love to not have had contractions," and all the things.

And I'm like, "And I'm also a mom who's never had a contraction. Like, I've had- Oh ... a son." Oh, right. 'Cause I remember them coming into my room, and I would be like, you know, they're like, "How are you feeling?" I'm like, "I'm having pain right here." And they're like, "Is it a contraction?" And at one point I got so fed up with them asking me that question, I was like- You-

"I don't know. I've never had one. Tell me what it's supposed to feel like." Like, give me a break here. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, I'm like, "You tell me if it's a contraction. I don't know. I'm the patient." Yeah. And so I think there was a lot of grief, and then the confusion of like the, you know, the shoulds, Jan, right?

With the shame of should I even be grieving, um- Right ... something like that. 

Jan: Right. Shooting yourself to death is what we call it Exactly. 

Patti: Yeah. And not only that, but i- the, those last few months of the pregnancy where a lot of people are like, you know, I don't know where you were in your process, but as somebody who's never had children but have been around people and watched the things, but like you're getting the nursery ready, and you're like, you know, you're, you're having a baby moon, which is a thing people do now.

Or, you know, but- A baby moon? But like the i- A baby moon, where you like go and have a little- Like a honeymoon, but it's 

Stephanie: before the baby comes. Yeah. Oh. Like your last time alone. Oh, oh, I get 

Patti: it. But point being, like you're really starting to nest even more, and you're like getting in that, that final period where you're like, "This is..."

And you didn't have that. You didn't have that period of time of the final building excitement and also being like, "Get out of me," you know? Like, 

Stephanie: like- Well, and my baby shower was after he was born. Right. Oh. He w- and, and in the w- the worst part, I don't wanna even say that, but one of the difficult parts of that is that he was in the NICU.

Patti: Right. 

Stephanie: Right? So he wasn't even born and with me at home where I got to show him to people. Right. Like, he was still at the NICU- Oh ... while I'm at home having a baby shower. Oh. And it just, it was complicated. There was a lot of complex emotions and, and confusing emotions that went along with all of that.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. And the guilt. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think the guilt of I couldn't keep him in, especially once he got a staph infection. Oh, I'm not a normal mother. I'm not a good mother or something. Right. Yeah. The guilt of like if he were inside of me, he wouldn't have the staph infection right now.

Right. Right? Mm. And so my body couldn't handle that, and he had to come out, which we knew he had to come out anyway 'cause of the gases building up now, you know, retrospectively. But guilt doesn't matter, right? It's, it's gonna- Yeah ... it's gonna play up in your brain and mess with things, and there was a lot that was wrapped up in all 

Jan: of that.

Well, we have a lot of parallels actually i- in- Yeah? ... birth stories. We do. I mean, I don't know, some women I've talked to is they love being pregnant, you know? And, uh, that was never my experience. Right. It was like torture for me. It was like, oh, this is torture. And, um, I was just thinking what you were saying about your mom and having a stillborn.

My mother d- her, her first son she had, uh, died at birth. Oh. And so, uh, and of course the story they gave me was he was a big baby, and he, uh, the doctor used forceps and collapsed his lungs- Oh ... and he died. 

Stephanie: Oh, no. 

Jan: Oh my God. So my mother, no wonder she was trying to kill herself all the time. Wow. She was very depressed.

Wow. I mean, I'm laughing at this, but I just put that together. I was thinking, well, no wonder she was so depressed. Anyway, but, you know, so she had that trauma. And, and so then I, then she had my brother, and then she had me, and then I had a, a younger brother. I have a younger brother too, um- But he was born, and his name was Craig, and you know, I think died a couple days later, so that was very traumatic for her.

And I was thinking, now me, I carried my son, this is my first son, till I was, uh, to term, completely to term. And I was so big. Like, I used to be a dancer, you know, and I weighed like 120 pounds when I was really in my... And I weighed 190 pounds at 9 months old. Wow. Mm-hmm. I was so uncomfortable. I remember, you know, sitting, being so big, that I would just put my plate on my belly and eat like, you know, it was a TV tray.

I mean, that's crazy, you know? And really feeling so big, you know? And- Yeah ... uh, you know, it's just, I'm not used to that. And I, it was torture getting around places and everything, and he wasn't born until in January 13th, so you know, h- that's... Is that when your son's born? My son's birthday's January 12th, Jan.

Oh my gosh, you're kidding. Wow. January 13th is when he was born. And- He was due April 2nd. Oh, right. Oh. He was due April 2nd, but he ca- he decided to come January 12th. That's right. Oh my gosh. He wanted to 

Stephanie: be a Capricorn. Yeah. 

Jan: So, uh, is that what, uh, January is? Capricorn? Okay. The first 

Patti: part of January, yeah, till the 29th.

The first part, yeah, 

Jan: the 13th. So, um, and like I said, the weight gain and not being able to move around, and in winter, you know, getting behind driving, you know, your... It was just, it's so uncomfortable. And I had nausea for the first four months with both of my sons. 

Stephanie: Mm. 

Jan: Just nauseous. A- and I kept thinking, you know, "This is gonna be over at some point," but it went on for about four, four months, so.

Oof. Um, so tough. And I think, you know, you gotta, I, I think m- here I'm gonna go on my men thing, is men have no idea what it's like to have your body hijacked for like nine months- Yeah ... or six months, and feeling so out of control. They, you know, they're, they're just thinking, you know, it's like, oh, a bun in the oven, you take it out of the oven, you know?

I'm like, "No, it's not like that." I gotta put some humor to this, because other than that I probably would cry about it. But, but I, so I, so when... And unfortunately, back in my mom's day they used to put 'em to sleep. Is, was your mother put to sleep, Stephanie? 

Stephanie: I don't think so. Not that I've ever been told. See, 'cause m- 

Jan: you know, my, I'm a little bit older than you are, like twice.

And so my mom, let's see, she was born in '25, and let's see, maybe '35, '40, 1940. Maybe she was, she was really young, like 21 when she had her first child. Uh, and they put them to sleep. 

Stephanie: Really? They, 

Jan: they roll them into an operating room, and God only knows what they do, but they put you to sleep- Wow ... and they must somehow have used to induce the baby and have the baby born.

But, uh, she was never awake for any of them. But I- Wow ... of course, had my son in the '90s, and in the '90s everybody was into, "Let's do it naturally. You know, let's have the full experience, man." You know? And I'm thinking, "I'm gonna have the full experience." Oh. Well, that was really... I wish I had never done that, but, hmm.

'Cause now I talk to my girlfriends who are having kids, their kids are having kids, and they're all like, "Give me that epidural, you know? I don't wanna feel this. I just wanna be awake for it, and I wanna be able to be a part of it, but don't let me feel all that pain." Hmm. So were you... You were gonna do yours naturally too, right?

Yep. And so then did they have to, um, give you Pitocin, um, for, to get things going, or did they- No. No. Because you had a C-section. No, because my blood pressure 

Stephanie: was so high, they, um, they took me into the OR, numbed me, epidural, right? Um, and then they started the C-section, so there was no- So 

Jan: you were awake for the C-section?

Mm-hmm. Yep. 

Stephanie: Yeah. 

Jan: Yep. Right. 

Stephanie: Also traumatic. 

Patti: Also, also- Yeah, I was just thinking that. Like, to imagine, I mean, I know they put, like, a thing in front of you so you're not seeing your belly open. You're not seeing. But, like, to just see people- Well- ... there cutting into you, knowing that your body is open, and you're just like, "So-" 

Jan: I have, um-

this is body." I have some pictures because, uh, a friend of mine... Uh, the, so the practice that I was in was a midwife practice, and they had a doctor, but the midwives were handling. And they were supposedly covering for another practice when I ha- when I went into labor, so w- we hardly ever saw them. But I labored for three freaking days.

Three days. 

Stephanie: Oh my 

Jan: gosh. Yeah. Oh, no. 

Stephanie: Three days. 

Jan: And it was so dysfunctional for the three days. And because, um, you know, I'm having labor pains and I'm unmedicated, you know, we were doing everything, going in the bathtub, doing, you know, you know, everything that you can do. And finally- 

Patti: Unmedicated labor for three 

Stephanie: days.

And this was your first son? 

Jan: My first son. And- I 

Stephanie: don't know how she had a second one. 

Jan: I know. It took me four years to decide to do the second time, 'cause I thought, "I can't go through that again." Mm-hmm. But, um, what happened was, uh, m- m- the, finally the nurse practitioner comes in and she goes, "You know, I think-" He, he's stuck.

I'm like, "Y- you think?" Um, and he, he came d- you know how babies are supposed to come down headfirst- Yeah ... with their face, um, uh, uh, uh, to your back? He was coming down the other way, military position. Military, you can relate to that, Stephanie. And so what happened is the, my pel- pubic bone, he would come down, and his chin would get stuck on it, and he couldn't come down.

Oh my 

Patti: goodness. So- 

Jan: Which had to be traumatic for him too, right? Yeah. Oh, sure. Like he goes down, and you know, he, um- And yeah, they, yeah, they have the fetal monitor on him and everything, and I'm thinking, "Man, I just want this kid out of here," you know? Yeah. I don't care how you get at it, just get him out.

Stephanie: Yeah. 

Jan: And so, so what happened is then the, the midwife comes in and said, "Well, you know, we, we really should, uh, we're gonna put you on Pitocin and see if you push even harder if it'll happen." So they- And they 

Patti: couldn't go in and flip? Because I know sometimes they can do that. I know I've 

Jan: heard that, but no, uh, the midwife- Probably he was too far down.

Stephanie: Mm. 

Jan: He was so far down. Yeah. So then what they did is they said, "Well, we're gon-," A- after the Pitocin didn't work, they said, "Okay, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna have an u- a C-section, but the doctor's not here." I'm like, "What?" So they, I had to wait. They had given me Pitocin and told me to stop pushing, and I'm like, I have, I don't know if you've ever been on Pitocin, but you cannot stop pushing once you're on that.

Stephanie: Wow. And 

Jan: so I had to wait for almost an hour and a half for the doctor, who was at another hospital doing a C-section, and came over. And I remember they were all in the operating room just sitting around going, uh, you know, watching me and saying, "Is the doctor here yet? Is the doctor here yet?" It was horrible.

That makes you feel safe. Yeah. And so finally the doctor shows up, and then of course they give me the, an epidural. And then th- they, this is the worst part. I had a girlfriend who actually turned into a nurse, but she wasn't a nurse at the time, had taken pictures of it. So I have pictures, Patty, of beyond that blank, that, that piece of, uh, lin- you know, what is it?

Yeah. 

Stephanie: Towel or whatever 

Jan: they put there. Yeah. You know, drape. And, you know, it's, it's, uh, very interesting, you know, because they take your intestines out and throw them on your stomach. 

Patti: Sure, sure. 

Jan: And right, you know, it's, uh, pretty amazing. Wow. But he was so stuck that they could not get him out. So I remember them taking him and thumping my body on the table, and all of a sudden, boom, all this blood came flying, and my husband's sitting next to me.

Oh. I look up, and he's covered in blood. Oh, God. Oh my God. I'm laughing at this. I wasn't laughing years ago. No, no. No, it was a Wednesday. Well, of course, at the 

Patti: time, 

so. And 

Jan: then, you know, on top of that, fine, he's born, and then, um, the doctor, you know, takes the baby and checks him out. And then of course they look at me and they say, "You know, Jan- You've grown a ovarian cyst that we need to take out, so we need to put you under.

So they had to put me under, take the cyst out, and then when on my way out, I remember in recovery the doctor said to me, she goes, "You know, Jan, I had to take a lot of the ovary and I'm not sure you'll be able to ever have children again." I'm like, "Hey, well, this is all great news. I mean, so far this is a stellar of a day."

And so- Oh, my God. So then the saddest part, he had something called, um, uh... He had transposition of the great arteries. So the two major arteries in your heart were reversed. Oh, no. And he, um, they had... He was two days old and he had open heart surgery. Oh, wow. Wow. So he had open heart surgery. We were so fortunate to have this, uh, Dr.

Hanley, who, um, does transpositions, and they were moving the coronary arteries over and he was in a study. But they basically put you on a machine where it cycles for you while they're doing the heart. 

Stephanie: Yeah. 

Jan: And he was 9 pounds 10 ounces, is how big he was. He was huge. Oh, no wonder he was stuck. No wonder.

Ouch. And so anyway, so m- after, you know, him having the surgery, the doctor said it's good that he was that big because it wasn't like a two-pound baby like you had- Ah ... Stephanie. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, you can hardly see things. Mm-hmm. And so he was switched over at, like, two days old. And I remember lying in the hospital, 'cause I, I was recovering from my surgery, and I remember my mother calling.

This is perfect for this episode. My mother calling, and she said, she said to me, "Jan, I'm so sorry to hear what's going on," and she started recounting her whole experience with her first son when he died- Oh ... to me. Right then. And this is three days after- Exactly. Yeah ... I had Luke. And I'm thinking, "I can't believe she's talking to me about this right now."

And all she kept saying is, "Make sure you get some help." Anyway, but that's, um, you know, my poor mother. Um, anyway, but that story was, will live in the history, and I don't usually tell the story to anyone, Stephanie, just because it's, it's a nightmare. And my dear friend- Yeah ... who is a nurse said, "Jan, whatever you do..."

'Cause I was gonna try to do a home birth. She said, "Jan, please-" Oh ... "don't do a home birth. Please don't do that." And at the last, I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna do it at the hospital since it's the first one." Yeah And so I'm so glad I did. Yeah, 

Stephanie: yeah. Definitely. 

Jan: And I was in the hospital, but the practice that was covering me was absolutely inadequate.

Um, you know, and I, it was in so much trauma and pain afterwards coming home from the hospitals, and Luke didn't come home for at least two weeks. And then just what it was like having a newborn that was, had o- open heart surgery. Mm-hmm. Right. He was so unsettled. And, uh, you know, it was just, it, it was really a tough go for the first time.

That's why, Stephanie, it took me four years to ever deci- my husband's like, "Let's have another baby." I'm like, "Are you kidding?" You're like, "You have another baby." You have it. You know? I'm not doing that. Yeah. Um, but I, I did find... I was 37 when I had Luke, and I was 42 when I had Zach. Wow. And I found a doctor that would work with me, 'cause mostly when people get C-sections, they always say you have to have a C-section after it.

Right. And I looked for a doctor that would do it so that she would give me a VBAC, and I successfully had Zach as a VBAC, believe it or not. I don't know what that 

Patti: is. What is a VBAC? Vaginal 

Jan: birth after delivery. VBAC they call it. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. And, and he... Gosh, she took him early because he was such a big baby, too.

Big, you big baby. And he was, uh, like eight pounds, eight and a half pounds. She took him early so I could have him vaginally. And when I did, um, I remember my husband was looking at him in the nursery and the nurse said, "Is this, is this your son?" And he goes, "Yeah." And he goes, "You tell your wife congratulations.

He's got a huge head." So... But this doctor was great. She managed the whole thing, you know? Wow. And this is why I'm a big proponent to go to a doctor, um, you know, m- especially for the first child. Because if your, if your mom, like your mom, Stephanie, she's blipping them out, boop, boop, boop, you know. Yeah, once your body's used to it and you can tell what it's gonna do.

Right. But you nev- you just... It's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. Exactly. Yep. Wow. Anyway, so I don't usually tell that story 'cause I don't wanna scare, um, mothers, the first time mothers, because they're all like, "Oh my God." But that's why I think getting a real good OBGYN to work with you is so essential.

Stephanie: Yeah. But I think it's important, too, Jan, like, you know, for people... Like I didn't know going into my, to my experience, you didn't know going into yours. It's not that you wouldn't do it knowing, you know, the experiences that we've had, but it's, you know, being able to go in knowing what the risks are. Yes.

Right? Knowing what the potentials are or if XYZ happens, here's what your options could be. And I think just having more and more information and more experiences to be known- I agree Is really important 

Jan: Yeah. Now I had amniocentesis done for both of them because I was over 35, 'cause I was really clear, and people probably won't like to hear this, but if it was gonna be a Down's child, I really was gonna choose not to have it.

Yeah. And, um, and I really, uh, so I had all that testing done. But if I'd had an ultrasound done of my son Luke, they would have seen that he had transpositions of the s- of the great arteries, and I would have pr- it would have been a whole different experience. And this is why you're saying, you know, information and a good doctor that really watches.

So when I had Zach, they did an ultrasound just to make sure that he didn't have it. Of course, he didn't. But it's just, it's so interesting to me how much technology has changed. Mm. I mean, I'm thankful that Luke was born when he was because, uh, the kids before him, years after them, they stopped doing that surgery because the children needed new hearts.

So of course, that wasn't great to hear, uh, when- Mm ... when you realize you have a son who is, um, um, c- uh, cardiac, you know, issues, so. But, uh, I don't know. I mean, today, this technology is so different. My- I'm a grandmother now. She's nine months old. And when, when Quinn went through her... She's an ideal person with pregnancy.

She had some morning sickness, but then she went into blossoming, looking great. You know, th- glowing. You know, they talk about that. And she had the baby, carried it all the way, uh, went to Mount Auburn Hospital, had an epidural, boom, two hours later, the baby came out, the baby's perfect. I'm like, how come that didn't happen to me?

Patty, this is where I always say to you, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen to me. Right. Really, Jan, that's another example of that. So, but she went to a doctor and they, her OBGYN really, you know, did all the proper things. And, you know, I just, I, I don't know. I didn't really have a great OBGYN, so. 

Stephanie: Yeah.

But 

Jan: that's... I, I don't know. Was your... Did you like your doctors that you were going to, Stephanie? 

Stephanie: I did. Um, she, she was great. However, she sent me to the hospital, came and checked on me the first few days, and then goes, "Okay, I need you to keep this baby in 'cause I'm gonna go out of town." Oh. Oh, God. And so she was gone when I had my baby, but the team that took care of me did amazing and did great.

That's great. And I'm very, very thankful for all of them, the nurses, the doctors. Um, I was at Good Sam here in Cincinnati. Um- You have good hospitals there. 

Mm-hmm. 

And they have a really great NICU. Yeah. Um, it... Funny little ad lib to my son's birth and timing was that, um, I don't know, you guys not being local may not know, so Cincinnati Zoo has a very famous hippo, Fiona.

Mm. Um, because she was- Oh ... born as a preemie She was born right after my son. And so there was this whole big thing about this preemie hippo at the Cincinnati Zoo as my son was in the, a preemie- In 

the NICU. Mm-hmm ... mm-hmm. 

And, um, they said that there were a lot of children's hospital doctors that were working on Fiona, and my son had some doctors coming over to help work with his scolding staff, and I was like, "Maybe they share doctors."

So Fiona has a very special place in my heart, not just- I love that 

Jan: name, Fiona. That's good ... not just being 

Stephanie: a local hippo, you know, but just she was kind of this, like, hope- Yeah ... for me, even though she was a hippo and it had nothing to do with my baby. But there was just this, this shared story, which was really kind of cool.

Jan: I love 

Stephanie: that. 

Jan: That's great. So. 

Stephanie: Yeah. You guys have to look up Fiona the Hippo. I will. Yeah. 

Jan: I think I've heard- Yeah ... I've seen it on the news or something. I don't know. Mm-hmm. But anyway. Mm-hmm. So do you have any tips, Stephanie, for- Yeah ... um, you know, uh, when women are trying to be pregnant the first time, um, or, you know, uh, for care and how to pick a gynecologist?

I mean, we try to talk about resources that people need. Yeah, 

Stephanie: I mean, I think to the point you said, Jan, is making sure that you feel comfortable and you trust the team that you're working with. And I would say because women don't tend to share scary stories, like you had said, is I would start asking.

Yeah. "Hey, I want you to tell me the good and the bad." Yeah. Um, just ask all the women in your life because I think the more that you know, the more you can prepare, again, not to scare you, but to be informed. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great point because also, yeah, the... if, if you had... I mean, again, your situation was so positive in that you had people that were like, "Go."

Um, but had you had these conversations and met people who had preeclampsia and you might have immediately yourself been like, "Oh, wait, I remember so-and-so mentioned X, Y, Z," and you might have identified that, you know? Right. So I think that's another good- I might not have had 

Stephanie: swollen ankles for a week. I could have gone the, at the first sign- Yeah

and said, "I just wanna make sure that this isn't something to be worried about"- Yeah ... and could've turned out differently. You know, you never know. Absolutely. 

Jan: Yeah. You know, I think this, um, m- my, uh, s- daughter-in-law who went to this gynecology practice, they had an evening where they called it Meet the Doctors.

Oh. And you got to meet with each one of them, and they all say, you know, "We don't know who you're gonna get, but when you go into labor, you may get doctor this one, this doc..." And they all introduce themselves. I didn't have that. I actually- Love that ... I didn't even know the doctor that delivered my son.

Stephanie: Yeah, I didn't either 'cause I had her- You know, and it was- ... when it happened 

Jan: It was really nice to, to, uh, when she was telling me about that, I thought, "Wow, that would've been great," you know, to just feel a little safer about everything. You know, okay, I know this person is... This doctor was at some other hospital, and she was covering some, someone else and, you know, it was just kind of a, a mess.

But anyway, so I think really having a team and meeting them. Isn't that a great idea, meet the doctors? Yeah. I thought that's great. 

Patti: Ah, I love that. 

Jan: Or meet the midwives, one or the other one. Yeah, I mean, probably a doctor. If people wanna do midwives. I don't know, how often do you know, Stephanie, and friends of yours that have had kids, do they do midwives, or does everybody go to a gyn- a gynecologist obsti- obstetrician?

Stephanie: Um, I know some people who have doulas along with their- A doula along with it ... along with their, with their gynecologist. Um, but no, I haven't heard a lot with midwives. Hmm. Um, but I also don't have a ton of friends having babies either, so Yeah. Yeah. How 

Patti: about you, Patty? I was gonna say the, the doula aspect of it, and that's, I mean, a cost, right?

Mm-hmm. And, and that's a, you know, if... That's a, um, privilege to be able to have. But if you're in a position to, to do so and have a doula, I think the benefit of that is they tend to be, they see a lot of births, so they see a lot of things that are happening. They're with you through a large part of your pregnancy and the birth, and after, many of them, and helping kind of initially right after as well, and- Mm-hmm

they have a lot of resources. Right, right. And so again, that's a, that's a place of privilege to be able to afford that, but if you're able to do that, I think that's great. But I think they- And they- Mm, go ahead ... 

Jan: I think they, I think doulas, or get me wrong, help with breastfeeding too, if people are breastfeeding.

Mm-hmm, yep. And you know, I know some women who, I didn't have any problem with it, but I know some women- who had inverted nipples. Mm-hmm. Have you heard of that? And they could not breastfeed, uh, and they were struggling with it. And so, you know, a doula does help them with that, which I think is a, a great service.

Yeah. Right. Especially, especially... And I'm a big fan, I'm gonna say, of at least breastfeeding for s- three to six months- Mm-hmm ... because it passes on a lot of the immunity through mother's milk, and- Yeah ... I think that's important, so. 

Patti: Yeah. A friend of mine's a doula, and, um, she's a newer friend of mine, so I'm really just starting to learn about that, and- Mm-hmm

she does overnights with new moms- Oh, nice ... and stuff. And so she- Oh, nice ... yeah, so she'll be there and helping overnight. And, you know, I think that's a really amazing gift to, to be able- Mm-hmm ... to have for yourself in the beginning. And yeah, it helps with all that stuff, especially when you're going in and, like, if it's your first and you're like, "I have no idea what I'm doing," you know?

Right. And to have somebody who's like, "You're good. You're, you're fine," or, like, who's- Yeah ... you know. That type of thing. Stephanie, 

Stephanie: were you able to breastfeed, or did you not? I attempted to breastfeed, but he never would latch. He was... Because for one, um, he wasn't able to, to bottle feed or breastfeed until a couple months after he was born, 'cause it was- Right

while feeding tube. IV. But I pumped, and so he still had all breast milk- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... up until, I think, six months. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Stephanie: Even though he never, he never latched on and was able to breastfeed, he was still- Yeah ... fed with breast milk, which was great. That's, we have another 

Jan: similarity, the same thing. Because when I had Luke, because I had been on all this, you know, surgery after taking that ovarian cyst off, then what happened was, um, I was on these medications, you know, for pain.

Mm-hmm. And they didn't want any of the breast milk to be, uh, put in Luke after he had open heart surgery, so they fed him with a bottle. And he got so used to eating on, with a bottle that he never wanted to latch on. Yeah. So I did the same thing as you. I, I pumped my breast for, I think it was, like, three or f- about three to six months or something- Yeah

and fed him that way. Yep. 

Stephanie: Yeah. 

Jan: And boy, talk about- It's exhausting ... 

Stephanie: feeling like a failure. Yeah, yeah. You know? And it's exhausting to pump and pump and never get the connection that you get with breastfeeding. Yes. Exactly. But just knowing it's important, and yeah, it, it's, it takes a toll. And, like, I think to your point, Patty, with the post-birth doulas, 'cause actually I have a client that is.

And, and it's been i- really cool to hear some of her stories, um- But just to be able to be there with like the postpartum and to normalize things- Mm-hmm, yeah ... and to just like have a woman not be alone in that process. Yeah. And I know husbands can be great, but like they don't have the information that a doula would have, right?

Right. Or even another- That's another 

Patti: resource. Yeah Yeah. I mean, even having a friend who's, who's 

a mother, I mean- Mm-hmm ... that has some time to spend with you and, you know- Yeah ... I think, I think which brings a great point of community- Yes ... in general is- Exactly ... um, again, I speak from somebody who's, as somebody who's never had a child and never chose that route, but community is a big deal, and motherhood, from everything that I hear and understand, can be incredibly isolating.

Mm-hmm. And so- It is ... having your community and reaching out to them and making sure you have that connection- Yep ... so that you feel less alone and you have people to trust and go to. And, and trust when people, and this is for everyone in general, not just in this situation, but if, if your people are telling you you're not a burden if you reach out, trust that.

Yeah. Because I think a lot of us don't ask for help with our friends and our family and our community because we worry that we're asking too much or we're a burden, and I think that's such a, a negative thing that we do. And I think if, if there's somebody there being like, "I, hey, I'm... Uh, whatever you need," tell them what you need and- Mm-hmm

don't be afraid. Yeah, that's great. Because it's not forever. You're not a burden, quote-unquote, forever. It's, it's you need help during this period, and you would do the same most likely. So I think that's a really great, um, kind of direction to think of when you're in that position if you can't afford external help.

Jan: Yeah, for sure. 

Patti: Um, 

Jan: well, all I gotta say is it is definitely a passage. Some women have it easy and some women have it a little bit harder, and some people have it like quite an experience, and- Yeah ... you know, it's, um... But you know, you look at your s- I look at my son now and I'm thinking, "This is amazing." Mm.

So. Yeah. And you look at your son, Stephanie, and I'm sure you're... You know, he's only nine, so he hasn't really, you know, got- be a young man. But it's like you think, "After everything I went through, it's really worth it." Yep. The bottom line, it's like worth it. Yep. But nobody, really nobody... I, that's the thing is my husband, he's like, "Let's have another child," you know?

It's li- ... kinda like they, they have no i- Like, I'm like I don't know how compassionate he was about any of that, you know? I was just pretty much swinging by on my own, so 

Stephanie: yeah. It's so funny, 'cause my husband was the exact opposite. He was like, "Let's..." I was like, "I want to have the experience. I want..." Right? I, I was in denial of everything, of how I almost lost my life.

I wasn't in denial about my son and his, his trauma, but I think I was definitely in denial about my own, and I was like, "Let's just do it again. Let's have another one." I, I was, I was on that path, and my husband was like, "You need to give me some, some time." Yeah. So, um- Yeah 

Jan: Yeah, it's, it- It's definitely worth it.

I mean, I think in- Oh, yeah ... in retrospect, uh, looking at it, you know, even then, the, having Zach and having him, finding a great doctor to work with me and having him, and he actually he actually ended up having, um, never, uh, what do you call it? When he was born, he had jaundice. Mm-hmm. So he ended up getting very sick with jaundice- 

Stephanie: Mm-hmm

and 

Jan: ended up going to a children's hospital, like, when he was three days old. And- Oh my goodness ... I was like, I was, like, turning into a permanent fixture there. And, um, but you know, I look at that now and I think it's just that it's a miracle that really having children and birthing them and raising them.

And then of course, you and I, Stephanie, what do we do for a living? It's all those parents- Help them ... that just don't quite know how to be good parents. Right. And the kids have some developmental trauma, but you know, it's life. 

Patti: Yeah. Well, good job, you two, making it through the, that, those traumatic experiences.

And thank you both for sharing them, because- Yeah ... I think it is important that people hear the stories and, and for those who have had those stories and might feel alone and, and their- Yes ... traumatic birth stories, to hear some other- Mm-hmm. Absolutely ... um, horrifying experiences that they can relate to in some way, and know that, you know, that can be normal birth too.

Um- Mm-hmm ... birth is not just in the, in the movies where a woman's screaming and breathing heavily for a little bit, and ta-da, there's a baby. You know, there's- Oh, you know, I gotta 

Jan: tell you, I watched the movie Hamnet. Are you guys familiar with it? Oh, yeah. I haven't 

Patti: watched it yet. 

Jan: I watched it because, uh, my husband's gone for a couple weeks, and I thought, "I'm gonna watch that.

It got an Academy Award." This woman has a baby in the middle of the forest, and I was like, and I'm thinking, I'm looking at that, I'm thinking- ... "Ah, that just isn't possible." She's struggling through the whole thing, and I'm thinking, "Okay, I guess, did they do it that way?" Anyway, I, it's a little crazy. So I wouldn't suggest anybody or recommend that they do something like that.

But one thing I- Do not go to the forest and have the baby ... before we end, Stephanie, I think your, your point about the shame that goes with mothers. You know, 'cause what we hear is all the good stories and how everything looks like happy babies and all that stuff, and there is no shame. I mean, uh, in comparing yourself to other, it's, it's your journey, and, uh, get support.

And, um, you know, it's the shame of how you're supposed to be doing it as a mother. So. Right. 

Stephanie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And there are, there are certainly, uh, communities out there and support groups out there. I know that with the NICU there were some that were offered. I, I never chose to en- engage in any of them, and I wonder if I had, would I have processed things quicker?

Um, but it's definitely something that, a- again, with- technology and things and being more available is growing and, and allowing people to have community of grieving the loss of the end of your trimester. Right. You know, it's something my husband couldn't understand, but other women who might have experienced it could really validate and affirm.

Yeah. Just like we talked about in Hawkeye, just to be able- ... to sit with you and, and normalize that this is, this is part of the human experience for some people, and it doesn't make you, like you said, Jan, a bad mom or a failed mom. It's, this is just your experience and having- Yep ... to process through it.

Jan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Stephanie, for coming on. I guess we, we, uh, like shared our stories. I hope I didn't share too much, but- Oh, it was great. Yeah ... some of it's kind of funny. I mean, you have to laugh or you'd cry- Mm-hmm ... all the time, so. 

Patti: Right. Yeah. Well, thank you, Stephanie, for coming. Yeah. And thank you both for sharing.

Jan: Thank you. Of course. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share 

Patti: it with friends, subscribe, and leave a review. And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional.

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a 

Patti: guest. We'd also love to hear a quick 90-second thing you've learned in your life. You can find links to both of those over at our website at- thingsmymotherforgottomention.com or in the show notes.

Thank you.