The Messy Reality of Leaving a Long-Term Relationship

This week we got into something we know almost everyone has struggled with: what it actually takes to walk away from a long-term relationship.

We both share our personal experiences of leaving long relationships, including the whys, the good and bad things, and the parts we felt less than proud of.

Here's what we dig into:

• Why "just cut it off and let go" is terrible advice when you've shared half your life with someone
• The difference between leaving because you're afraid to be alone and leaving because you've outgrown the relationship
• How addiction becomes a person's "first love," and why their choices were never about your worth
• The myth that you have to be fully healed before you're allowed to be in a relationship
• Why staying together "for the kids" usually backfires (they absorb everything, every time)
• Jan playing devil's advocate on marriage and commitment, and Patti the self-described commitment-aphobe meeting her halfway
• The reframe that helped Patti most: what if this is as good as it gets, and you stopped waiting for permission to be okay anyway

The throughline is simple and a little maddening: love is not something you have, it's something you keep doing. And if you're struggling, get help. There is zero shame in it.

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

Submit your 90-second lesson/experience here.

Apply to be a guest here.

Stay updated on new episodes here.

*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Things Podcast Ep 28 - Ending Long Relationships - 5:28:26, 3.53 PM

Jan: Welcome to Things My Mother Forgot to Mention. 

Patti: The podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author turned rogue storyteller, here to talk openly about the body, aging, and all the wait what moments of womanhood. 

Patti: And I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world, and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things My Mother Forgot to Mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, "Wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me?" 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty, two outspoken, curious, outrageous women, as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging, health, and quite simply being a woman.

From rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning- To mental health, perimenopause, and scalp cancer. Yes, really. 

Patti: Nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it. 

Patti: Hello, Jan. 

Jan: Hey there, Patty. Happy Thursday. Is this Thursday? No, this is Friday. 

Patti: It's Friday- Whoa

but it'll be released on a Thursday, so we can 

Jan: pretend- Okay ... 

Patti: it's Thursday. 

Jan: Okay. Great. Yeah. 

Patti: Happy Thursday- And how are you? ... Friday. I'm good. I'm good. Great. How are you? 

Jan: Uh, I'm recovering from my dental work today, but I'm gonna, uh, I'm doing much better. 

Patti: Yeah. I know we had just a c- few episodes ago had, uh, episodes about tooth horror stories, and then you went and were like, "Hold my beer, Patty.

I wanna tell you..." 

Jan: And then I went and had one. 

Patti: Exactly. You're like, "Oh, you think that's bad?" 

Jan: Oh, dear. What a world. 

Patti: Are you having any pain or anything right now? 

Jan: No, no. 

Patti: Good. 

Jan: Not at all. Good. It's not at all. I was pr- I'm pretty happy about that, so. 

Patti: Yeah. That's good because you'd be feeling it by now if you were gonna, so.

Jan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I understand we're gonna talk about divorce and long-term- We are ... relationships. 

Patti: Yeah, leaving long-term relationships and divorce. Um, we find that people are interested in talking about and hearing about relationship stuff. 

Jan: Right. 

Patti: For good reason, because it's something that a lot of us deal with and cause a lot of joy and excitement and pain- Mm-hmm

and heartache. And I don't know the exact statistic, but I... We were just talking before I hit record, and it is pretty much 50% of marriages- 

Jan: One out of every two. Mm-hmm ... 

Patti: end in divorce, which is pretty scary, um, when you're considering getting married or being in a relationship. 

Jan: Mm-hmm, yep. And, um, you know, when I was a, a couples counselor and did couples counseling, you know, that's, that's where I got to see just how much, uh, after people try to work it, and if they can't get really good help, uh, they really end up just splitting.

And- Yeah ... uh, the place it hurts the most is the children, and that's, that's always the thing that I felt so sad about for the kids because they're the ones that kind of take the brunt of everything of parents. And especially when parents get divorced, they're... Th- some of them are, it's all about, you know, battling each other, getting the best lawyer, and really punishing the other person 'cause look what you did to me, and all that kind of stuff.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And that just really ruins the kids. It just, it's so hard for them to see that, so. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: But I understand you had a long relationship, uh, with some partner of yours for 12 years? And so what was that like for you? And, uh, y- you ended that or you mutually- Yeah ... decided to end it? 

Patti: Yeah, I mean, I've, I'm pretty much ended that.

I, um, yeah, we were together for, in person, for about 12 years or so, and then kind of tried separately after that from separate states for a little bit to try to figure out how to make it work. Um, and ultimately that was just not, not something. And I mean, we weren't married, but you know, we were together for a very long time.

And, um, although we didn't have like finances intertwined, which was good- Ah ... so that made it easier- 

Jan: Mm-hmm ... 

Patti: um, for, for that. But we still had like, uh, you know, combined phone bills and, you know, we sharing a lot of the things. So like it was, uh, h- and I've talked about that relationship before on the podcast.

He was an alcoholic and, you know, we were, uh, together for, yeah, a really long time and there were a lot of really amazing things in the relationship, and then there was a lot of really hard. And so I reached a point kind of towards the end there where n- we were still living in San Francisco and my family had all moved out here to Texas, and it was i- just getting a lot more difficult with the level of drinking that was happening.

And I was, we were sharing, we were living, ex- since we were in San Francisco, we couldn't like live by ourselves anywhere unless it was like a tiny- Right ... tiny studio apartment, which wouldn't have worked for either of our personalities. Um, and so we lived in a house and we had a couple of housemates upstairs, and they weren't really the best as far as housemates went.

They were very loud and messy, and like, I felt very, I didn't, I didn't feel safe in a lot of the spaces and, and emotionally safe. Like, there was no place for me to just rest and be at peace. Either I was in the room downstairs with him, and he'd be intoxicated and passing out and things like that. Sure.

Or I'd go upstairs and I'd have weird energy from them, or they've taken over the upstairs, so then there's no place really for us to be. Like, it w- there was just, it was very complicated. And so, yeah, I started really, and I had been dealing with anxiety for a while, which I've talked about in the past, like it had been ramping up, but it really just sort of at that point was like, "I can't."

Like, I've got no safe space and there's no- Well, that 

Jan: isn't good for a relationship 

Patti: It was not I mean, 

Jan: I can't, it's not, it's like, sounds like a war zone or something that you 

Patti: guys were- Yeah ... kind 

Jan: of live 

Patti: in Yeah, and at the same time, I, because of that, I wasn't, I was very passive aggressive in my, our relationship.

Mm. So like, you know, I was no cup of tea. Mm-hmm. Um, and I still had a lot of learning to do and growing as far as being in a partnership. And, um, you know, and, and definitely Al-Anon helped me afterwards. Mm-hmm. Um, because I was still very in the... You know, for people who aren't familiar with that, when you're in relationship with an alcoholic, a lot of times it's very codependent, and when you're the person who's not a- addicted, you're trying to manipulate, you're trying to- Yep

stop it from happening. Trying to fix it, trying to fix them. And guilt trips and whatever you can possibly do to try to make it stop because that's a c- and for me, control has always been a challenge of mine because of my own history. So anyway, it was, it wasn't great for either- Wow ... of us. And so I reached a point where I, I kind of went to him and I was like, "Look," I did an ultimatum and just said- Mm

"I, I think I wanna leave. I wanna go to Texas," which I couldn't believe 'cause I was like, "I'm never moving to Texas," but there I was because I was like, "I don't wanna do this anymore and be in this space, and I need something different." And so- Um, I was like, "You need to stop drinking or I'm leaving." And he was like, "I'm not...

No, I'm not gonna stop drinking." And so I was like, "Okay." And so I got my stuff together- Good for you ... and, you know, got the process. And I mean, it took a long time to get there, but, uh, and then right at the end he was like, "Oh, no, I'm gonna stop." And I was like, "Well, I've already got, like, moving movers booked," and, like, it was too late, you know?

And so at that point I was, like, still in my codependent, hopeful... You know, I was like, "Okay, well, we'll try separately from different places." And, and I, and I also wanna say again, like, he, you know, he was never abusive. He was never any of that. It... He was sleepy. He w- like, he would fall asleep a lot. He wasn't present.

He wasn't a 

Jan: mean drunk, is 

Patti: what you're saying. Not at all. Not at all. Ne- he never, in general, never said a mean thing to me. Like, he was always really loving in that way in the relationship, so... But it had nothing to do with that. It had to do with I wanted a partner and somebody present, and- Yeah, someone 

Jan: to show up, right.

Patti: Yeah, and wasn't dealing with those things. So, you know, it, it really was just I just needed to, to get out, get on my own. And so I moved here, and um, it was the best decision I've ever made. And, you know, we still, like I said, we still tried, we still connected. Um, but I was still had a lot of self-worth issues also, so I was like, "I don't deserve better.

Nobody else is gonna love me, and so I better kind of stay, you know, it's, it's... I should keep trying. And he loves me. He really genuinely loves me," and that was true, but that doesn't matter. Like, that, it wasn't about love anymore, you know? Um, it had gone beyond that. And the, and the fact that I, like, he was a bender drinker, so, like, there'd be periods- Yeah

where he'd be sober. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: And so then we'd be like, "Oh, this is amazing." And so I'd get these glimpses of, you know, so it was the potential. There was, you know, all of those sort of aspects of it because I liked him. I enjoyed him when he was sober, so it made it harder. But yeah, so I lived, I moved here and just sort of, I moved in with my mom so that I could kinda get on my feet, and I happened to start my business during that time, so that worked out really well for me.

And we kind of tried, and I kept talking and I kept holding on, and I kept holding on, and he kept dangling, and I ke- you know. And eventually it just sort of got to the point where, like, it just wasn't a thing. But I remember, man, it was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life, leaving- You mean 

Jan: standing up and saying, "If you 

Patti: don't-" Leaving him, yeah.

"I can't," leaving him. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and, and doing something for myself and leaving my entire life in San Francisco. Yeah. You know, I had never really... You know, I grew up in Chicago, but, like, that was a little kid, you know? So, like, I never as an adult been anywhere else, and I left everything. I remember I was sitting, um, watching the Golden Globes with my mom eating a salad, and I just burst into tears.

Like Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know? And that was, like, the grief of this relationship- Mm ... of just, like, every... I was fine. Nothing was happening in that moment, and it just... I'm eating a salad watching the Golden Globes sobbing just because there's so much. And, um, and, and I'm still, you know, the last year and a half or so I really started doing some healing work with it- Mm-hmm

of, like, with my therapist and doing work- Mm-hmm ... around, like I said, worth and why I was so attached and didn't wanna let go and, you know, all of that stuff. And, um, but man, it was hard. It was hard. And it's still... I mean, I still think about him. I still dream about him a lot. I still- Mm. And I feel embarrassed when I say those things.

Like, I, I should let go, and I should... A- and I have, and I have no interest in being with him as a person, but man, we, we spent a long time. Like, that's a lot of life, you know? That's, like, almost half my life I spent- Yeah ... with this person and- Mm-hmm ... all of my, the majority of my adult life. Mm-hmm. Um, and all the trips we went on, and, like, the only trips out of the country...

That's not true. I was gonna say the only trips out of the country I went with him, but I... That's not true. But we went to Japan together and Hawaii. Yeah. Like, we did all sorts of stuff, and so that's weird sometimes I think for me to sit and think about, like, the fun things I loved about my life- 

Jan: Yeah, 

Patti: yeah

connected to him, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and so- 

Jan: What did he do for a living? 

Patti: So he was an artist. He- Oh ... was a glassblower, and then he went back to school to get a degree in pottery 'cause he also was a, a potter. Um- Mm-hmm ... but things kinda, you know- Were difficult in San Francisco, so he got laid off, and so it was a struggle towards the end for him to find work and, and that sort of thing.

But yeah, he's an, an amazing artist, which is another piece because I have so much beautiful art in my- 

Jan: Of 

Patti: pieces 

Jan: of his. Mm-hmm ... 

Patti: place that's his. And so I've, I've put a lot of it away just for my own- 

Jan: Mm-hmm ... 

Patti: wellbeing, I think. I mean, although most of it, I don't see him when I look at it, you know? Mm-hmm. I see art.

Um, but there are a few pieces that I'm like, "I just love this piece," and I keep it there. And, um, so it's very... It, it's... When you're with somebody for so long, it's, uh, pe- Mm ... people talk about you should just let go and just cut it off. And it's like, man, but it's not all bad when you're in a relationship- No

even if it's so hard. 

Jan: I mean, right. It's kind of like parents, you know? 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. It, you know, it's a challenge being with your parents as you grow older and, and doesn't mean that you don't love them, but it's just, it doesn't fit with your lifestyle- Exactly ... and who you are anymore, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So it makes 

Patti: sense.

And, and we both, like, by that, by that end, like, I wasn't a fit for him anymore either. Like, you know? Mm-hmm. We... You grow, and we wanted different things and grew in very different ways, and we just weren't... We wouldn't have been a fit anyway. Plus, there was just too much damage. Like, I could never go back to that because there was so much lying and hiding, which comes with addiction.

Jan: Yeah. That with addictions. Right. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jan: You know, and that's the thing when you do couples work is you're looking for addictions. And when you find addictions, it's always like that has to be cleaned up before you can really get to couples work because- Yeah. Yeah ... their first love is their addiction.

Mm-hmm. So whether it's alcohol or it's weed or it's sex- Mm-hmm ... you know, a lot of sex addicts- Yeah ... you know, and what they're doing, and it just, it gets in the way of being relational, so- Yeah ... it, and it's brave. And I, I can't tell you the countless women I just... I'd say that to. You're gonna have to... You can't get him to stop, and you're gonna have to either put up with it, or you're gonna have to- Yeah

stand and say, "I'm not gonna put up with this, and I'm leaving." Yeah. So that's what you did. 

Patti: Yeah. And it was really interesting when I, you know, attended Al-Anon afterwards. That was the thing is, like, I, I listened as a lot of people were like, "I've... I'm making the choice to stay knowing what I'm staying with," and I'm like, "Hey, that's, that's cool."

I mean, like, you're aware of it though, you know? Mm-hmm. You're aware of what you're doing, and I think that's interesting. But I think the... One of the biggest lessons that I learned through that part of it is that- His actions or then inactions towards me in our relationship where I would feel neglected or whatever had nothing to do with me.

Him not wanting to stop drinking, you know, it had n- like, 'cause I was like, "I'm not worth it. I'm not enough for you to..." Like, but it had nothing to do with me at all. 

Jan: It had nothing to do with... Addictions are about people who have- Yeah ... unprocessed trauma. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And they're medicating. It's a, it's a way that they've decided to cope with it rather than- Yeah

to do therapy or to really look at what those pieces are, uh, that they're trying to medicate, so. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. So it's not about you. Mm-mm. But the problem is, is if that's where you were getting, like it sounds like your self-esteem and feeling like you weren't- Correct ... worthy. Yeah. And that's a big thing, self-esteem.

I mean, it's one of the big core issues of, you know, uh, uh, how do I hold myself? Like, I have value, but when I'm with him, I feel so much better and I feel like I matter. Right. So it, it's hard to break that, especially, especially, and even women who have relationships where men are abusive- Yes ... either emotionally or physically, and have addiction.

They can have all three of those things. And, you know, I, uh, it's always a tough thing to watch women and saying, you know, th- they, and so many, oh, my gosh, I think the biggest thing I used to look at is seeing women who had wealthy husbands and they never had to work. Mm. And they would be in, uh, living in these really nice suburbs of sh- of Boston.

And then when their husband, you know, was either having an affair or, um, their relationship drifted apart, or she started having an affair, and usually affairs when they first happen are just because there is no relationship in the couple anymore, and they've kind of forgotten that. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So but neither one of them, if they don't want to repair it, and they decide a divorce, these women are unemployed.

They have no career. They've been treated like princesses all their life. Mm. And they come out of it 'cause everything gets split in half here in Massachusetts, and sh- they live in lesser homes. They have no career. They don't know what to do with themselves. I mean, it's, it's devastating. Wow. And, you know, that's what I think relationships are about, though, is it's a, it's a way of working on yourself- Yep

believe it or not. 

Patti: Yeah. I, I agree with that, and I, and I also, I mean, there's a lot of people that talk about, like, you're not, you, you should heal yourself before you're in a relationship, and I, I don't think that's the ca- I mean, I think that you should be in a solid state at least to be when you, to go into a relationship.

But, but you're always gonna keep growing as a person, and so I don't think either... And there's no finished, perfect version of you, and so I don't think waiting until that happens. But, uh, you know, like, I'm in a place kind of after that relationship and, and looking at dating apps and stuff on and off for the last many years, that I'm just like I, I don't know.

Like, I'm doing, I've done so much work on myself with my therapist- Yeah ... and my stuff to be at peace, and I'm j- at this point- Yeah ... I'm like, "I don't know, man. I 

Jan: don't know." Well, you know, that's w- you know, my, my mother when she... My father died when I was 26, and he was only 55. He was very young. So- Yeah ... she was, like, 53, and she started dating and met some guy, and then she started living with him, and he was, uh, a drinker, and she ended up having to take care of him.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm telling you, that's the problem. And, and so what you're, you're bringing up a good point here, is that i- if you do your own work, you really... The only reason you wanna be in a relationship, if somebody else is doing their work- Yeah ... and they're, they're holding their end of it. Yeah.

It's that you're not taking care of them. You're not that codependent person, like, trying to fix them, or you're not doing it just because you're afraid to be alone. 

Patti: Right. 

Jan: You're doing it because there's something shared there where you're both working on yourselves, and that's... Growth is an important thing, and you come together and- 

Patti: Yeah

Jan: and that's a hard thing to find. 

Patti: Yes. 

Jan: I, I- I hate to tell you, Betty, but 

Patti: it's not- Yeah. No, and I know, and, uh, uh- ... 

Jan: out there ... 

Patti: I have a, a f- a friend of mine who once said... And I think she heard it from, from somewhere. You know, so many of us are sitting here looking for something, and the best something in life and everything, but what if you stopped in this moment and said, "This is as good as it's gonna get"?

Like, what if you knew this was as good as it was gonna get? What would you do, and how would you treat your life differently and act differently in your life? And that was really helpful for me because- There was sort of this idea in my head that I had to... You're supposed to ha- be married. You're supposed to have a partner.

You're supposed to... And, and so I felt sort of like, well, but shouldn't I want that? But I, I want, if I'm gonna be with a person, I want a real companion. Yes, exactly. Because we wanna be together. I wanna share my life and my existence and all of that, but not have it be because we need it, and we- Right ... like- 

Jan: Right

Patti: yeah, I just, I don't wanna play that game, man. Just I really, I really don't. 

Jan: I totally agree. And, you know, I think, you know, just from being in this field, um, you know, that's what I was saying, uh, in our meeting earlier this morning, is that if you don't get a couple that has really done their own personal work- Yeah

when they get together, they're kind of a mess. And, and then when you add children in there, uh, and then you're a mess, and your- Yeah ... your partner's a mess, and then you have children, and they get to be a mess, uh, it's... Everything gets very dysfunctional, and kids really, um, ha- take the brunt of everything.

Yeah. And so, so when I was first married, I was so... I was... I don't know. I had to be out of my mind when I was getting married. Um, and why I thought I had to be married, because... I know why it was. Because I was, um, involved in this very kind of fundamental Christ church. 

Patti: Mm. 

Jan: And, uh, so I was kind of, I guess you'd call that, you know, when I was in college, I was in Campus Crusade for Christ.

Yeah. And I was really kind of, you know, one of those, you know, pamphlet people on the corner, you know, talking to people. I know. It's shocking. 

Patti: You have so many layers, Jan. 

Jan: So I, I, I have to say, I did not even... I was never even sexual before I got married. 

Patti: Mm. 

Jan: So I mean, because of the church I belonged to.

And so, uh, I decided that I wanted to get married to this guy, and he was a minister. 

Patti: Oh, 

Jan: wow. And he... Yes, I married a minister, and I was 21 or 22. Wow, that's young. And I remember, Patty, though, walking down the aisle and going, "I can't believe I'm doing this." And I remember my sister-in-law, the day before she said, "Jean, you know, you can call this off if you want to."

And I'm like, "Oh, everybody's coming," you know? It's like, I'm doing it. Oh, my God. I 

Patti: know. So, so you were w- so you're walking down the aisle thinking, "I can't believe I'm doing this," in the not, like, "I can't believe this is happening," but in the, "Uh-oh, I can't believe I'm doing this"- Uh, yeah- ... 

Jan: kind of way ... it was the uh-oh.

I, uh, the, it was definitely- And 

Patti: what was it about that at that moment that made you, that was making you feel like... Like, what were the flags- Well- ... or what was happening? I 

Jan: didn't... You know, I was doing it because I thought it was what kind of God wanted me to do, you know? Mm. It was more like out of the directive that this is a holy man, and you know, you're, you're embracing your, your Christianity, and you're gonna have this perfect marriage and blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, but, um, what happened was, of course, we got married, and we ended up, uh, getting a home, and it was in the suburbs of Chicago. And I ended up getting an, an interview at TWA Air- Airlines. And when I got my job with TWA, uh, my life, uh, took off. Literally. Was that funny? Uh, 'cause all of a sudden it was like I was out in the world- Mm

and traveling everywhere and meeting all these really great people, and I thought, "I can't believe I'm married. This is ridiculous." Wow. And I just, uh, it, something else came out, and I decided that there was no way I was gonna stay at home 'cause everybody kept saying, "Well, when are you having children?"

Right. "And you should have children and do, you know, live this little kind of boxed life from, you know, our church." And I thought, "What am I doing?" And this is the time I listened to myself. So I was really horrible because I just basically, uh, rented a U-Haul, packed up my house, and, and drove away and left a letter, which I am not proud of.

I am not proud. Wow. In fact, I actually want you to know that if anyone is listening to this and really horrified, I did go back to him maybe 15 years ago and made amends with him, um- Yeah ... and apologized for just the way in which I treated him. And he apologized for the way he treated me because he said he was trying to be some big holy mucky muck that I would be in love with, you know?

Yeah. But it goes right back down to- Thinking, you know, when you're getting, y- all this co-dependence or when you marry someone, you think you know what you're getting into. And I was so young and immature. Just it was unbelievable. So, so, uh, I got divorced. I remember, uh, I, I was married probably only for three or four years.

We had a home together, which we sold. But we, thank God, never had children. Mm. Uh, I was in no shape to have children. In fact, I was thinking, "I'm never having kids," after I saw what it was like growing up in my family. So- Yeah ... but anyway, I, you know, that's what really sent me on this path to wanna figure out how to have good relationships.

Wow. And that's what I spent my time, and that's why I went back and to gradu- actually, I left the airlines, and then I went back to, um, I was in high tech, and then I went back to graduate school. And I wanted to learn what it was like to be very relational and to be healthy and to figure out what is my trauma that keeps getting repeated because one of my favorite mentors, of course, as you know, Pia Mellody- 

Patti: Mm-hmm

Jan: says you always marry what's something that's familiar. Terry Real would say you always marry or get into a relationship with what you need to heal. Mm-hmm. And of course, uh, that was kind of my thing. And so- Yeah ... I, I didn't get married until I was 37, I think, 36 or 37, the second time around. And that still has been a struggle.

You know, it's, it's- Yeah ... a challenge being in a relationship and doing your work and staying on your side. And, and raising kids, it even gets even more complex- Oh, yeah. Absolutely ... because kids, you know, they, like, eviscerate marriage because they b- take the front center stage. And if you're, as a parent, are not, you know, working with your own material and understanding what's happening to you, your kids are just a permanent trigger for you all the time.

Right. And i- and they get treated really poorly. So- The moral of this story is do your own work. 

Patti: Yeah. So you were... So how... Was he much older than you? 

Jan: Yes, he was. Uh, I was like 22, and he was probably, like, almost 30. Okay. Like, maybe a few years older than me. So 

Patti: I was gonna say, if he was a minister, he had to have been- Mm-hmm

a little 

Jan: bit older than you. He went to grad- Yeah, he went to, um, f- divinity school, right. 

Patti: Mm. 

Jan: And it's so funny, today he ended up finding a woman he married, and he had two sons, just like me finding someone, getting married, and having two sons. Mm. Yeah. And they're about the same age as our, my, our, my two sons.

Wow. And it's really... I, I mean, I look back at that fondly of just, even though traumatic as it was, um, I just feel like it was big huge, huge growth experience for us, and that's how I look at relationships. Rather than looking at it like, "I hate that person. I'm gonna punish them"- Right ... is look at it as to what is it that it's teaching you about yourself and, and to grow from it.

Patti: Yeah. So did you... Because, I mean, even though you, you reached this point where you were like, "I'm here. Watch out, world. Here comes Jan," you w-

Jan: Okay. 

Patti: Well, you know what I mean, like, and then you got out there and you were like, "Oh, this- what am I doing? This is... There's, there's other things out there than this small church bubble and this," you know. 

Jan: Yeah. 

Patti: But when you left him, did you deal with the grief of losing somebody you were with for three or four years, or were you so much sort of on the, on the like- 

Jan: No, I was relieved- Yeah

because I found another guy, and that was the problem. Mm. I found somebody else. Okay. Who... And, and I'm not proud of that, but, um, you know, that's the- my learning. I'm, I'm one of those people that learns by doing, you know? Yeah. I don't really read about it. And I actually had three other relationships beyond that one, and lived with someone for a couple years, each one of them a couple years, and kept repeating...

Now, this is my big idea that I talk to everybody about when I'm doing consultation, is I kept repeating the same fricking pattern with every one of the guys. Mm. I couldn't stand up for myself. I didn't have a good voice. I never set really good limits. And, um, uh, e- until I finally did my own work and started realizing that that's stuff I needed to do, and, and put up with less And to be more direct, and, uh, all that good stuff.

Yeah. And once I really looked at me rather than pointing the finger at them, uh, it was a whole different story. 

Patti: Yeah. So is that, you know... Well, so now you're in... How long have you been married to your current husband? 

Jan: 37 years this year. 

Patti: So that's a pretty remarkable feat. 

Jan: It is. It certainly is. And you know, that in itself, because every relationship has a, a certain, a, an emotionally focused therapy, they call it the core negative pattern.

Mm-hmm. The pattern you keep repeating over and over again. Yeah. And that pattern is, is a, a product of some of your, I guess, trauma. Because when we're growing up, we learn how to deal with things that are dysfunctional, and then you bring them into your relationship, and you have to really kind of look at that and say, "Okay, I can't keep doing this.

I need to find a way to get out of this same old pattern." And, and that's the work that needs to be done. Yeah. And that's why I was saying today that if everybody did some of their own trauma work and, and looked at their developmental, um, way that they accommodated their family system and how they bring it into their relationships, uh, they would be able to do couples therapy much...

It would be much more effective. 

Patti: Yeah. And well, and therefore are also, uh, probably just better in the relationship as a whole, and you might not even need couples therapy. 

Jan: Well, you know, it's interesting. Some of the couples model, the theoretical models that are out there for- Mm-hmm ... people, uh, you know, getting divorced, there's so many.

I'd say there's probably about eight or nine major ones now. It, it was never that way years and years ago. And they're all focusing on mostly, uh... Some of them are on skills, skills-based. Hmm. Right. You know, how to speak and listen, how to use boundaries, how to be assertive, all those things. And those are useful, and those are useful for people who don't have a lot of trauma.

But for those people who have a lot of trauma or have some addictions, they're way- they have a lot to work Yeah ... and that some of the skills just don't hold up, and they need much what we call d- uh, bottom up work, deeper work. 

Patti: Mm. 

Jan: So I, I did mine, and I'm still doing mine. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: It doesn't ever end, you know?

Patti: Nope. Well, and, and I mean, we continually have traumas in our lives. So you know, we, we get re-traumatized in various new fun ways on a regular basis- ... in this way, you know? New fun ways. And so that's something that we then bring to our relationships, we then bring to, you know... I mean, I think people who stay in relationships for a very long time, I think is a really amazing thing when, when they're staying in it mutually- 

Jan: Because 

Patti: they want to be

and they're working- Right ... on it together. I think people who stay in relationships because they're afraid of leaving or, you know, that there's a lot of- There's a lot of those, I'm sure ... there's a lot of those. Or people who stay because it's best for the kids. It's never best for the kids. Yeah. Like, they feel it, any tension and stuff.

I mean- They do ... you know? Like, it's gonna be hard- Yep ... either way, but it, w- would it... I would rather, if I had a child, I would rather them be able to look at me as a potential role model of standing up and boundaries and, you know- Mm-hmm ... doing what's happy because you want your children to see you happy.

Now, of course, every situation's different, so I can't speak. You know, there are- Mm-hmm ... I'm sure, situations where it is best for whatever reasons to stay, you know? Um, but I think, you know, to, to say that generalized that staying for the children is, I don't 

Jan: think is a good- Yeah. That's not always the best.

You're right. And, um, it is better for, eh, whenever I have worked with couples before and, or the, the woman that's, that's left, I always say to, you know, what they really need to see is what you just said. They need to see you happy and standing up for yourself and taking a stand rather than just taking it.

Yeah. 'Cause so many people with their family of origin stories is where they're unhappy, and they're just taking it and, and they just- Yeah ... suffer throughout the whole marriage, and kids carry all that pain. They, they figure it out. 

Patti: And they absorb everything. Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, I've been around since I've lived here, right now for 10 years, my n- niece and my nephews and watched them grow and- r- it is just been so remarkable to see how absorbent they are, being in the same room or being in a, like they just take in everything.

Jan: Yeah. 

Patti: Yeah. All of the feelings- They don't have boundaries 

Jan: when 

Patti: they're young ... all, everything. And so whether or not you realize that you're, you know, you think you're putting on a happy face, they feel that. We're humans. We all feel when people are going through things. And so- 

Jan: Yeah ... 

Patti: I think, yeah, like, and it's, you know, it can feel scary to be alone and on your own- 

Jan: Yeah

Patti: and, 

Jan: but- And for women, you know, especially coming out of my age era- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: uh, they didn't, you know, some of them were still at home mothers. You know, my mom was. Oh my gosh, yeah. My mom, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: Um, and your mom and, uh, you know, I wasn't. I worked the whole time, and secretly I worked because I thought if my marriage doesn't make it, I don't wanna be left unemployed, and I wanna be able to pull myself out of here and leave.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: I, I, that was my thinking. So it was my trap door, my- That was 

Patti: a- ... my back door ... pretty good guess that you, this wasn't a marriage that was g- gonna, gonna last. 

Jan: Well, it sounds horrible 'cause you're going into it, but I'm, I've been known- No ... to be the girl with the gl- I'm glass half empty mostly. 

Patti: Well, but I don't think there's anything wrong with making sure that you are self-sustainable.

Mm-hmm. And i- you, you know, and same, like you get into a relationship, you don't wanna just be like, "Well, now I'm a take, I'm a..." What is it? The, uh, taking care of, there's a word, I can't think of it, but I'm a taken care of person. I don't have to- Mm-hmm ... you know, like I don't have to do anything now. Like I can...

That's just, I mean, for me, I could never i- imagine that, and I think that puts you in a position that... And I think for me, 'cause I saw my mom go through that, right? Like- Yeah, yeah ... she was a stay-at-home mom 'cause this was the '80s. And then when she and my father got divorced- It was- Yeah. It, yeah, then she was like, "Oh, okay.

Well now-" 

Jan: Now 

Patti: what? "Now what?" And now so she had to get a job, and she had worked briefly before, like they met at her, her job. Mm-hmm. And so she'd worked very briefly before they got married, and then they were married, and she was a, a, you know, stay-at-home mom. And so now suddenly she had to work, and so which meant that as a single mom, 'cause, you know, he was in prison so he wasn't contributing financially, so she was taking care of three children- I know

having never, so as- Right ... we started talking about in the beginning. And then, and 

Jan: of course her mental health- 

Patti: Oh my gosh ... 

Jan: changing for her three kids- 

Patti: Oh my God ... and not having 

Jan: any money or a career. 

Patti: So then- And, and everything that happened within that, like that was trauma- Right ... for her. Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. So that's her trauma, and then, you know, so that's probably socioeconomically, you know- Yes

your family wasn't very wealthy. Very, very much so. But like I said, I worked with couples that had so much wealth, they had, you know, two and three homes, and they had, you know, like all kinds of wealth, horses and everything. And, you know, and these women think, "Okay, we're gonna get divorced and finally this will be great," and they end up half with everything, and they have to take care of themselves, and they're with their kids.

Th- they, that's, even though they have all that r- the money, th- they're still struggling. So- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: but I, I think, you know, if I were to give anyone advice, I'd say, please e- even do some premarital counseling. You know? I think that's a really smart thing. And, and my, um, actually my advice to my two sons that were just, my one son was just married and the other one two years ago, is that if you're in trouble, get help.

There's no shame- Mm ... in, in getting help. It drives me nuts when people say, "Oh, we would never do that." I'm like, "Why?" 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: If 

Patti: you 

Jan: can save your marriage that'll help with your kids, what are you, a nut? Yeah. You know? I'm thinking, and there are so many new theoretical models that are so effective out there. I, I don't understand why people still have all this shame associated with going to counseling and therapy.

Patti: Yeah. But- I agree. Yeah. And I would say, you know, when we look at relationships and, and, and that sort of thing, I mean, I was lucky in this way to be in the situation I was where we never got married, and that was because he and I both thankfully, you know, we were always on the same page as not wanting children, and we were both on the same page of like marriage doesn't mean for, it didn't mean for us- 

Jan: Yeah

Patti: that we loved each other, and that, so that wasn't something that we needed, and therefore something that we really put any weight on. Mm. And for me, I always was sort of like- To get married and have that paperwork, that's what I would like to do if I'm with somebody when I'm older so that if something happens I can be in the hospital room- Yeah

for insurance purposes, like, things like that. Mm-hmm. But I, that wasn't something that I felt the need for validating our relationship or- Mm-hmm ... or anything around that. And so I think that us having that, and it made it easier logistically for us to then separate when the time came and, and break up because we weren't all intertwined legally and paperwork-wise- Mm-hmm

and, and all of that. And so I think also, you know, when we look at relationships, a lot of us get into and stay in relationships because we think it's what we're supposed to do. We're told that that- Right ... that, that you're worth something if some- That's what I did ... yeah, you're worth something if somebody loves you.

You're successful if somebody wants to marry you or, you know, whatever, any of those things. And I think I encourage you to challenge that view of yourself if you're, you're finding yourself in that situation. Because- uh, it's not all about that. And, and we've created a society where that's, that's the, the end all be all, is we wanna be in a relationship.

But it's like, I'm pretty happy not being in one. Yeah. And yeah, part of me wants companionship, and I would love that in a way. But at the same time, like, I also really enjoy the life that I have and, and I like living in a way where I don't feel like I have to... Like I'm lacking in something or as, uh, as a, uh, lacking in worth- Mm-hmm

by not having that- Mm-hmm ... and not seeking that out. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think there's all sorts of ways to exist and exist in a relationship and stuff like that. True. But do it because you wanna be with a person. Right. And you wanna be with that person. Mm-hmm. I think that's the thing. Like- 

Jan: I think, though, that my husband...

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here for a minute. Yeah. My husband used to always say, you know, my son was with his partner f- who just got married for, like, eight years, and now they get married finally. You know, which is great, 'cause, you know, it was a, it wasn't like they didn't know each other. Yeah.

They'd been living together for, um, like six of those years. So- Yeah ... um, and so it's kind of like, uh, an announcement. They, all the friends gather, and they're making a commitment to the, the community to say, you know, "Support us because this is, we've decided to pick this person to be in relationship with."

Yeah. "And we're gonna be monogamous. And, and this is who my partner is, and I'm gonna work things out," you know? Mm-hmm. And I think it's kind of like, you know, puts your feet to the fire, so it's not as easy to just say, "I'm out of here," you know? I could 

Patti: see that too, yeah. 

Jan: That's fair. And so there's, there's some of that too that comes together.

And then, you know, uh, like I said, it, the, it's just such a mixed bag. But- Yeah ... most of all is I keep saying to people, you know, that relationship is something you don't have, it's something you keep doing. 

Patti: Yes. 

Jan: Yeah. Love is nothing you have. Nothing. Yeah. I, I love this person, but, but it, love is, it's a, it's a verb.

It's, you get- Yeah. 

Patti: I love a lot of people ... 

Jan: it's, yeah. And it's, it's a practice of loving someone all the time. Mm. And what that takes from you. And if you're struggling, get help. And, and I can't say that enough, uh, because people wait. Oh, my gosh, people would wait, like 15, 20 years, and they come in and they hate each other, and they're resentful, and they're sniping at each other.

And then they get divorced, and then they're paying each other back, and they're, you know, hiring the best lawyer to beat each other up. It's just, oh, it's so ugly. 

Patti: Yeah. And that, I mean, when you're going at it from that perspective, that's coming from, from, um, hurt. You know, it's not anger, it's hurt ... 

Jan: coming from their adolescent self is 

Patti: where- Yeah

it's coming from. At that point, yeah. I love that perspective though, Jan. I think that's a really great point of, you know, I, I can be a, a commitment-aphobe, so that's fair. Um, you're... So I t- I hear what you say as the devil's advocate in that, and I actually really love that perspective of it's true, it's not as easy to walk away, and you're saying like, "I'm gonna fight for this, and I'm gonna...

This is a person that I want." So I think I sh- let me re-say again in the way that, um, marry somebody because you want to be with that person. Yeah. And not because you feel like you should be married. And I think- Correct ... you, that's what it's about is, is find the person you want, and that's, that's what a relationship's about, is like, I wanna, you know, I wanna sometimes...

Shit's gonna suck sometimes because it just is. There's no way, like, there's sometimes you don't even like your person every once in a while. Like, some days you're just like, "

Jan: Ugh." Of course. 

Patti: Of course. And, and- But the good far, far outweigh the bad. And so like, know that it's not all roses and sunshine all the time.

Yep. But man, to, to work that with somebody, that's pretty amazing. 

Jan: It is amazing. And, uh, I think it's, like I said, having kids... Well, when I got married the second time, you know, I was 35, 6, I think, and I was 37- Yeah ... when I had Luke. But I, I was, my clock was ticking. 

Patti: Yeah, yeah, 

Jan: yeah. And so we got married and m- moved in together.

We'd only been together like six months, and then... I, I knew him for, like, five years. Mm. But we finally, uh, we got married and boom, I got pregnant right away. And so, um, I, I didn't really get to know him all that well, and then it got to be about babies, you know? So- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: it, it's a challenge. A, a relationship, you know, we are born to be attached and to be relational- Yeah

and yet it's a very, it's very hard to do it well. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So. 

Patti: Wow. Well, I hope this is helpful to some people- Yeah, me too ... and, you know, um, you know, we always r- we always welcome if anybody wants to message us and share their experiences. 

Jan: Love to hear. 

Patti: We love to hear that. If there's anything in particular you want us to talk about, we would love to hear that.

And we know we don't talk about it often also, but we have a little thing that you can leave a message- Yeah ... and actually have your voice and share a story or share an experience, or share something that this made you feel. You can find that on our website at thingsmymotherforgottomention.com. And it's free.

It doesn't cost anything, and you just click a little button, and you record a little message, and we could play it for you on the podcast. And- 

Jan: Yeah ... 

Patti: you know, so don't be afraid- Please join us. Yeah, join us. S- share with us. We wanna hear it. I mean, we like hearing each other and ourselves talk, clearly, but we would love to hear from you-

as 

Jan: well. But- We'd like to hear from other people. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Jan. This was great. Well, 

Jan: thank you, Patty. It's great talking to you. I enjoy it. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends, subscribe, and leave a review. 

Patti: And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice.

If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional. 

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest. 

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 90-second thing you've learned in your life. 

Jan: You can find links to both of those over at our website at- 

Patti: thingsmymotherforgottomention.com, or in the show notes.

Jan: Thank you.