The Cycle Every Couple Falls Into (and How to Break It)

We're talking relationships today, and Jan's bringing the wisdom she's collected from 30 years as a couples therapist (plus 36 years of her own marriage).

Jan shares bits of the toast she's given at both of her sons' rehearsal dinners: her four hard-won truths about what actually makes relationships work. Then we dig into Pia Mellody's three golden rules of interdependence, the ones Jan says could make her rich if she had a quarter for every time she needed to explain them to a couple.

We get into:

• Why "falling out of love" might be the wrong way to think about it entirely
• The listening exercise Jan still uses in her own marriage
• What "celebrate the no" means and why it might save your relationship
• The pattern almost every couple falls into without realizing it
• Why keeping your side of the street clean changes everything

If you've ever caught yourself waiting for someone to just know what you need, or you're tired of carrying resentment instead of saying what's actually true, this episode is for you. Whether you're solid in your relationship or in the thick of a rough patch, these are the practices that hold up either way.

Find resources mentioned in this episode here.

Learn more about this podcast here.

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*Information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a proessional.

Transcript

Jan: Welcome to Things My Mother Forgot to Mention. 

Patti: The podcast where we say everything our mothers didn't. 

Jan: I'm Jan, a trauma therapist and author turned rogue storyteller, here to talk openly about the body, aging, and all the wait what moments of womanhood. 

Patti: And I'm Patty, an online business and tech nerd whose purpose is to elevate the voices of women in our world, and who doesn't believe in taboo topics.

Things My Mother Forgot to Mention is the podcast for every woman who's ever said, "Wait, why didn't anyone mention this to me?" 

Jan: Join Jan and Patty, two outspoken, curious, outrageous women, as they dive headfirst into a messy, magical, and often WTF realities of aging, health, and quite simply being a woman.

From rogue chin hairs and vaginal thinning to mental health, perimenopause, and scalp cancer. Yes, really. 

Patti: Nothing is off limits. It's funny, it's raw, it's real talk your mother definitely skipped. 

Jan: Let's get into it 

Patti: Hello, Jan. 

Jan: Hello, Patty. So how are you? Are you excited? 'Cause this is the last day before vacation.

Patti: Uh, I, yes, I am. I... Well, I have a lot, you know, as you know- I know ... I've, I've had some personal stuff happening that's happening this week also. So my brother's- Yeah ... flying in tonight, and so there's, like- Whoo ... basically a lot of family things happening up until- Yeah ... the day that I then leave, and then I'm going on a trip with 15 women- Right

to a river. 

Jan: Right. 

Patti: So I'm- 

Jan: And I hope it's not flooding in Texas. 

Patti: It's not. Well, it was flooding down where we're going actually. I know. Um- 

Jan: I know. 

Patti: Yeah, but- 

Jan: She told me. 

Patti: Yeah, so. 

Jan: Well, make sure you 

bring a life vest. 

Patti: I will. But it's, it's much better, and there's no more rain down there or anything. Okay. So, but it's- Okay

it's hot up here. It's gonna be in the 100s, 104 this week. 

Jan: Ooh. Ooh. 

Patti: Um, so it's gonna be hot down there, too, and they have more humidity down there, so- Yeah ... oh, yeah. I 

Jan: can imagine. Yeah. 

Patti: But w- but apparently, I've never been down there before, um, but this is, like, an annual trip with these women, and apparently, um, the river that we'll be on, which is the Guadalupe River, is very cold.

So that's nice. Oh, good. So basically, one of the days, there's, again, 15 of us, um, which is important for people to know because I'm an introvert, so and I'm sharing a room with, like, three or four people, um, at any given time. But, uh, at some point, I guess we're gonna tie all of our inner tubes together and just float down the river- 

Jan: Yes

is the thing. Now, that's a lot of fun, and I've done that- Yeah, I've never done it ... up in the Saco, the Saco River up in New Hampshire, where you see- Hmm ... it's in the White Mountains. Yeah. And we would do that, tie, and you know, two inner tubes and just float down, you know, and, and have a good time- Yeah

singing and drinking. Yeah. 

Patti: So that's what we're doing. Yep. There's gonna be... I've got, 

Jan: I- Yeah, singing and drinking. I, I make a really- 

Patti: What else do you want? I make a really good rosé sangria, and so I- All right ... brought this, like, portable thingy that I'm gonna fill with rosé sangria. And we'll have it on the river.

So yeah, I'm excited. Fun. It's gonna be fun. 

Jan: Well, good. I hope it's fun and, and you get some to- Yeah ... actually rest. 

Patti: Yes. Yeah, for sure. And then I have a few days off when I get back to decompress, so I'll rest then, too. But how are you? 

Jan: I'm doing pretty okay, you know? Um, trudging the road of happy destiny is what I call it.

Good. That's an AA term- ... for, uh, the recovery, my, um, recovery for my knee. So, um- Today I had PT, and I'm doing, you know, icing my knee right now. And, you know, I just... It's, it's a long process, and I- Yeah ... guess I don't have a choice. I'm, I'm in it, so. 

Patti: Yeah. But once it's healed, it's gonna, you know- I'm hoping 

Jan: it does.

Patti: When the pain... When the pain goes away, then you won't- Yeah ... have any pain, and you had lots before. So- 

Jan: Yeah ... you know. So. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Well, today we're talking about some form of relationships or guidelines for relationships, I think- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: I put it. Yeah. And, and, um, and I think that the reason I brought this up is because we did have Lisa Merlebooth on, um, near the beginning of our...

Gosh, was it, like, we've been in business- Early on, yeah ... our podcast for a year. Over a year 

Patti: now. For, um- Yeah. 

Jan: Awesome. And, uh, so I've been thinking about, you know, what would be really, uh, has been important to me about relationships. And, uh, I, I wanted to share some of my experience with that. So, uh- Yeah ... w- what do you think?

Patti: I love it. I'm here for it. And, you know, I always have, you know, I always have lots of things to share, so, um... But yeah, you, you were talking about how at your son's rehearsal dinner- 

Jan: Yes ... 

Patti: you stood up, and you said some things. Mm-hmm. And that it resonated a lot with people there. Yes. That they came up to you afterwards and said- Yes

"Oh, the thing that you said." So that's why we- Yeah, 

Jan: so- Yeah ... in fact, I did it both of my sons. Oh, okay. My other son got married two years before, and I did it at that wedding, at rehearsal. And then I did it at, uh, just in February at my son's, uh, oldest son's wedding rehearsal. And, um, it, it was, i- it, we... I got a chance to talk as the mother of this- Mm

of the groom. Right. Not the, I... It wasn't that important because I wasn't the mother of the bride. Right, 

right. 

But I did, you know, I did put my two cents in, and it was very interesting. There, there was a big group because they had a huge wedding, and, uh, there were about 30 people there. Oh, wow. That's a big rehearsal dinner.

Yeah. And I got up, and just from my 30 years of being a therapist and working with couples, I worked with couples for about 10 years of those 30, is I, I had to share to my sons because, you know, now they're off in their lives, and they've been launched, and they're not at our home anymore. Right. So I can't give them any more advice.

I thought, "Okay, I'm just gonna tell everybody what I think is, uh, from my wisdom- Mm ... in- including my own relationship." I've been married, let's see, almost 36 years, which- Yeah ... unbelievable. Yeah. It's r- it's, it's, it's frightening, 'cause before I ever got married, I think the longest relationship I had was maybe a year and a half, two years.

Hm. That would be about it. So- 

Patti: Yeah 

Jan: So you wanna hear them? 

Patti: I do. There's four of 

Jan: them. I wanna hear them. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the first one is that love is nothing you have, it's something you do. Mm. So, so many people are like, "Huh?" You know, they fall in love. Yeah. I can't tell you, if I had a quarter for every time a couple came in and said, "We just don't...

We're not in love anymore," I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, what does that mean?" Right. In love, in love, what h- romantic love where you can hardly keep your hands off of each other, you know, like the feeling's always great. And I gotta tell you, it's n- feelings are not always great in relationship. 

Patti: No. 

Jan: Yeah. You're, you're nodding your head.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Yes. And so, so much of being in love is really about the practice of being loving to your partner. Yeah. And that's the key. It's an action verb. It's not like something you get and you're done with. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So that, that was my first one, and I, I don't know how many pe- people didn't give me feedback on that one.

Patti: But I love that. I think- Yeah. 

Jan: What do you love about that? 

Patti: Well, I'm, I'm in love with that, Jan, because-

I love that because I think that you're right, that there's such this idea of love will find me, and I will- Yeah ... find love. And, and that, that when people talk about being in love, and people talk about love, they do talk about it in a very passive way. Mm-hmm. And I don't... I, I think you're 100% correct because it's not passive.

And in order to... I mean, think about any of your relationships, family, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, so right now is a great example, right? I'm in the middle of- Yeah ... all this stuff and dealing with the loss of a family member, and in the middle of that, there's, you know, everybody's grieving in their own ways, and some people have been to therapy, some people haven't.

So there's a lot of big feelings, and there's a lot of big personalities. And so as I go into this week, I'm choosing to love my family and to be present and give them grace, and it's... and it's a very active thing, whereas some people in the family- It is ... are struggling with each other and like, "Well, that person's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

And like- You know? And it's like we c- we could do that. And, and I think it's very similar in that way in any kind of relationship you're in where you have to choose. You have to choose to- 

Jan: Yeah ... to- You have to choose- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: being loving. Okay. Because so many of us, and you know, this, I'm not gonna get into it too deeply about have...

You know, they, we get triggered, and we go into parts of ourselves that are retaliatory or angry or resentful- Mm ... or wanna pay someone back. And those are not the ones that are gonna really be practicing the practice of love. 

Patti: Right. 

Jan: And so being loving means, uh, uh, with your partner, like right now I'm upset with him, but how do I still stay in the practice of loving and my commitment to loving this person?

Mm. And that's what peop- 'cause people think that, oh, once that's gone, well, I gotta go find it somewhere else again. Right. And that is not how it is. Right. I mean, certainly there are circumstances if your partner is abusive or they have an addiction- Right ... and there, there's issues. Right. Th- that I'm not talking about.

I'm talking about that when you get into a relationship, you... I- it's, it's a practice every day of choosing that I want to be loving or relate and be committed to this person that I said and make it happen. Right. And that's the, that's called being in... That's not called being in love and then it's gone.

Right. It's in the practice of loving your partner- Yeah ... which goes a long way. So that's the first one. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: The second one is, well, if you're practicing love, and you're committed, and you're going, "Okay, here it is," how do you set it up structurally to work? Meaning, and I said this to my sons, both of them, once you have children, if you decide to have children, children really eviscerate marriage.

Or relationship, uh, if you have a committed relationship and you chose not to be, um, married 

Patti: Yeah 

Jan: When you're having children, they all of a sudden become so important, uh, and take over such a big space. Yeah. Everything that you thought you had goes out the window because it's their turn, it's their demand.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, they're the priority. And, and that's where things go askew. So I said the most important thing is to set up, um, date night Once a week or every two weeks. Mm-hmm. Uh, and to get away twice a year for at least a weekend and find a great sitter for the kids. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And to really have a time, let's say if the kids are napping or whatever they're doing, but a time that's sacred where you can set aside all the busyness of life and cooking and shopping and taking kids here and there, and it's maybe a Sunday morning, like at 6:30 or 7:00 in the morning over coffee, that you end up making a sacred time to relate to each other.

Yeah. 

And there's so many different ways of, uh... One of my favorite one, uh, is, it's from a woman named Ellen Bader, and it's called the developmental model for couples. 

Mm. 

And it's a way of speaking and listening. So one's the listener and one's the speaker, uh, 'cause you can't have them both speaking. 

Patti: Right.

Jan: And they get like 10 minutes to talk about what's happening with him, and the, the listener, all they do is repeat back every so often what they hear you saying. Mm. Yeah. "Do I have that right? Do I have that right?" And it's not about giving feedback. It's not about debating. It's not... All you're doing is being present, being curious, listening to your partner, repeating back to them, "This is, you know, thank you for listening to me," and that's it.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: That is a great... I can't tell you. My husband and I actually do this. That's why I'm not like saying, "Go ahead and do it," 'cause I don't. 

Patti: Right, 

Jan: right, right. But it really works. Yeah. In fact, you know, especially for people whose minds kind of wander when your partner's talking, which happens- Right. Yeah

so this, so you have to like say, "So what I hear you saying is this. Do I have that right?" "Yes, you do." Yeah. And really so much more sinks in for me about what's going on with him that I would have probably not remembered if I didn't have to feed it back to him. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So structure- Yeah ... is important. 

Patti: Yeah.

And I think that that's really helpful even if you don't have children, because I think that, and I- Yeah ... and I think it really builds on the first one in a nice way too, because it's a way that you're choosing to actively love the person and choose that person. Mm. And I think that when you're with somebody, and, and again, this can apply to friendships as well, but like when you're with somebody for a long time, we start to take each other for granted- 

Jan: Yeah

Patti: no matter what. And, and with all best intentions, life gets in the way. Life gets busy. It does. And we, we take that person for granted, 'cause they're always there. Mm-hmm. And so you're like, "Well, h- they'll be there. Oh, they'll..." You know? But, but when you take that time, I just love this so much, because you take your time and you stop and you're making choices.

You're saying- Mm-hmm ... "Let's make sure we're having a date night." Mm-hmm. "Let's make sure we're going away. Let's make sure that we're talking to each other and really holding space." You plan it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. You're planning to hold space for your relationship, and that's a way to continue- Mm-hmm ... being loving, continue to being present, and also continue to say- I'm making you a priority in the middle of life being the shit show that life is.

Jan: Exactly. That's right. 

Patti: Right? I mean, because- Yes ... you're with each other through the highs and the lows and the everything's in between, and so you have... I just, I think that's really great. Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. And it really helps, the, I mean, there's the high times in your relationship where you're like a rollercoaster at the top, and everything's- Yeah

going well, and you're, like, really loving it, and then there's the low times 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: when everything seems to be falling apart, and you're really struggling with your partner. And, um, I mean, that's happening for me right now because of my knee surgery, is that my, you know, I'm not exactly the best person to be in relationship.

I'm kind of grumpy sometimes. Right. Yeah. And so my husband would look at me, and as he listens to me sharing, he's like, "You know, we're gonna get through this together." You know? So it's one of those kinds of things that, you know, it's a together thing. Yeah. It's not like, "Well, good luck, Jan. I hope you do okay with it."

Patti: Right. Yeah. 

Jan: And you're really... 

Patti: So. Yeah. And I think too that, right, sometimes you don't like your person. True. Sometimes your person's annoying. 

Jan: Sometimes- You don't like their behaviors. Mm-hmm ... 

Patti: right, yeah. Sometimes it's just, it's a, it's a lot. And I think that in those moments when you're allowing yourself to really be present with them, you can kind of probably be reminded of the things that you love about them, and why you enjoy them.

Yeah. 100%. Mm-hmm ... and you know? So I think there's that side of it too, because it also, it, it makes you kind of put down your defenses, right? Because if you have some stuff boiling, but then you have to stop and listen- Mm-hmm ... you kind of have to be present with that person and let some of the crap 

Jan: go. Yeah.

The key to listening is to be c- you know, curious about what someone's saying- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: and to really work hard on not being judgmental. 

Patti: Mm. 

Jan: Yeah. So this, it's a practice of mindfulness. I'll be, I'm gonna be curious, I'm gonna be present, and I'm not gonna be in judgment. I'm gonna say, "Oh, that's curious about that person.

I never knew that about them." Mm. So that's when you know you're in that most functioning place, and you're able to, to actually listen to someone. So. And you're 

Patti: not always in your head trying to, like, s- thinking about what you're going to say next. 

Jan: Right. Make your defense. Yeah. Okay, as soon as they're done talking, I'll tell them what I think.

No. Right. 

Patti: No, that's, 

Jan: that's the whole point of that, is it- Yeah ... it's not about back and forth. It's really about one person listening to the other person, repeating back, and really getting who that person is. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Now, that brings me to number three. 

Patti: Okay. 

Jan: Which is- One thing I love, and it's unfortunate because as I've gotten older and I've been in practice for 30 years, I, I know I'm not gonna be in practice for 30 more years, but the field of psychotherapy- 

Patti: Mm-hmm

Jan: has increased and gotten... There are so many new, what they, what I would call theoretical orientations for working with couples, for working with trauma, and there, it's, the field is blossoming. It, I, I'd say in the last 15 years, there is so much available out there. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And one of the things that I said to both of my sons at the, at their rehearsal dinner is, "If you find you get into trouble, and you're really, really starting to look other places, you're doing more self-medicating, and you're really struggling, get-" Help.

Yeah. End of the story. That's it. Get help. There's no shame, no shame in really going, "I need some help." It will save you a bundle, uh, rather than getting divorced. Yeah. It will help you understand yourself more. Yeah. And it will serve the practice of loving your partner greatly because y- you're trying to figure out your part in it.

It's not like, "Hey, can you fix my partner?" Yes. It's about, "Hey, what's happening with me, and what do I keep bringing to this relationship?" And that's something... Another thing, if I wish I had a quarter for every time someone came in here, they'd sit down, they'd point the finger- Mm-hmm ... and they'd say, "Can you fix that in her or in him?"

And I'd be like- Wow ... "No, but I can certainly help you understand yourself- ... and fix you." 

Patti: Yes. Yeah, I, yeah, I actually wrote down when you were talking, keep your side of the street clean. 

Jan: Yes. 

Patti: And that's what that is, yeah. 

Jan: It is. And that's... PM Melody used to always say, "Don't jump into the pig pen with him." You know?

Mm. Stay on your own lane. You know? Yeah. Stay in your own pig pen. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And, and it's true because, you know, people say, "Oh, we'll get through this, we'll get through this." And, you know, maybe for the first year or so you might think that, but I'm saying please, please, this is another re- time I wish I had a quarter for every time I got this.

Yeah. A couple would come in here, and they had been doing this, hating each other for many, many years. And then they, after 20 years, they, they didn't get help. Yeah. And it's really hard to help a couple who's been at it for 20, 25 years. Yeah, that's deep. And, um, that's why... Yes, and that's why you see so many couples getting divorced after the kids are out of the house.

Patti: Right, right, 'cause people stay together for the kids, quote, unquote. That's 

Jan: right. 

Patti: And yeah. Yeah, I think that's such an important piece. Like I said, that that's one of the thoughts that I had was keep your side of the street clean. And one of the things that I've learned post my relationship that actually helped me as we were still trying to talk and st- trying...

You know, we were trying to, uh, whatever we were trying to do. But I started being a part of these defensiveness classes that Lisa Merlo Booth, who's been on our podcast, teaches. And since I, you know, help her with her tech, I would just sit in in these classes to help with the tech and stuff. And in the meantime, I'm listening and learning, and was like, "Holy crap, I'm defensive," 'cause we're all defensive in some way.

And so but through that I got to- Right ... start hearing And seeing parts of myself and the way that I was showing up in relationship with, with my ex and with others in my life, my mother, and just in various ways that I was showing up defensive. And, and p- pointing blame on them and all of these things.

And as soon as I started... And it's hard. It's still hard, right? Like, you have to do it all the time. But, like, when you start seeing the way you're showing up, and you're going, "Huh Okay, I'm being manipulative there, or- Mm-hmm ... I'm being defensive, or I'm, you know... It changes things, and- 

Jan: Patti, you know, I notice that about you.

I, I- Oh ... love working with you a- because you are... I thought, "Gosh, usually people are always defensive." And they're, like, trying to explain why everything is the way it is, and why they can't do what they're doing, and, like, what did you do? And, and I'm so used to that. I... That's what I, I really notice that about you, and I- Oh

really appreciate it. 

Patti: Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank Lisa Merlo Booth and 

Jan: Yep ... 

Patti: and therapy. But, but- 

Jan: It's all of us. 

Patti: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. But it's really, it makes a big difference when you're able to see that, and you have to put your ego aside for it, and, and recognize that stuff. But man, it changes everything, and it just brings you so much more peace because- Yeah

you're just like, "Oh, there's..." Why? Why do we wanna show up that way? So when we're showing up in relationship and we're not trying to convince the other person of this or push some sort of agenda, and we're just at ease- Mm-hmm ... it either allows them and actually almost you're leading by example. So it's giving them space to show up.

Mm-hmm. It's giving them space to do what they need to do while you're taking care of yourself and keeping your side of the street clean, and/or it allows it, the relationship, to be done- Yeah ... and run its course, and say, maybe this isn't it. Because if that person's not going to match this, there is nothing that I can do other- True

than do my part. True. Mm-hmm. And if you don't wanna match and you don't wanna show up, and I've given patience and I've done whatever, all I can do is say, "Here's what's the best piece for me," and let go. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes that's a part of it, too, is not all- It is ... relationships are going to make it.

Jan: They are not, and you're now identifying the very thing that really breaks a relationship, and that's a person that has chosen... Well, they don't know if they've really chosen it. They keep thinking they're just- Right ... 

Patti: right. 

Jan: Right. Not to, uh, grow, and- Right ... to really s- look at themselves. I mean, because ultimately we do need to have that lens of looking at the self, um, and being able to be compassionate, but also to realize that we're human and we have the, some, s- some features that aren't exactly great in relationship, you know?

Yeah, 

Patti: yeah. 

Jan: I was just thinking something else you said about, um, when in relationship, and this has to do with boundaries. And of course- Yeah ... uh, this, I could go on forever about boundaries, but it, having boundaries- It, so some people are too porous, and they take it all in- Yeah ... and then they get defensive.

And some people use walls, and they don't take- Mm-hmm ... anything in, and they push it back, and they point the finger at you. And so really cleaning up, you know, your side and my side is, uh, how do I really work with someone in these internal boundaries that I'm using in speaking and listening, and how that is for me?

So- Yeah ... I think that's really important, and I know Lisa works with that too, so. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. Another thing that I, I find that for, for me was always kind of important, and that I, that I see sort of around me, is this idea of- a person, a relationship is going to complete me, and that, you know, there's a lot of interdependence and kind of the- Yeah

it, there's a lot of that, right? I need to find my other half, and I need- Mm-hmm ... to find my, that person's gonna complete me, that. But, and I don't think that that's a healthy idea. I think- No ... in a relationship we should be two people that are living our lives and choosing, again, it goes back to choosing every day.

We're choosing to share and intertwine- Mm-hmm ... our lives together. But you, I don't need you. I want you. I choose you. You ideally make parts of my life better, and I improve parts of yours. Yeah. Instead of, like, I need you in order to be okay. Right, right. This idea, right? Which, which we were fed a long time ago too of, like, women need a man to pay- Right

the bills and do these things, and men need women to cook and all these- Yeah ... things. And if we, we tear that apart and we just look at ourselves as two individuals who are like, "Dude, I like you, and I want you in my life." 

Jan: Right. Yeah. And we share our lives together. Yeah. We're living with each other, and it's really being with someone- 

Patti: Yeah

Jan: life sometimes helps with some loneliness and makes life easier having someone- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: with you, you know? 

Patti: Totally, and fun- But- ... and all sorts of cool 

Jan: stuff Exactly. Yeah. And I, yeah, whether you have children or not. 

Patti: Right. And 

Jan: you brought up something that's interesting. You said interdependence. So I, I wanted to just chat about that for a minute.

Okay. So I remember working with Pia, like, 20 years ago, and she used to call these her golden rules for interdependence. 

Mm-hmm. 

Now, there's anti-dependent, which some people are, like, don't let anyone do anything for them, and, and- Right ... they do everything on their own, and they're like, you know, the macho man or something.

And then there's the too dependent, and I'm dependent- Mm ... like you were saying, on someone else, and they fulfill me, and they- Right ... and they connect me, and my life is something because I'm dependent i- on them. 

Patti: Right. 

Jan: And what she talked about is interdependence. Mm. And she had defined it with three golden rules, and I, I use this all the time, and it's really hard, so I don't know if you've heard this ever, me saying this before.

But the first one for, or first rule for interdependence is ask for help if you can't do it yourself. Mm. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: When you can do it yourself, do it yourself, okay? Yeah. But, like, you have knee surgery, or you, you know, you, uh, are someone dies in the family, and you need someone to go do something or pick your mother up or whatever- Yeah

it's, you don't go into, "Oh, I can do this all myself," and get overwhelmed and, and be resentful because you're doing it. 

Patti: Right. 

Jan: So that's the key is, is that when, do what you can for yourself, but when you can't do that, and you need help, is to ask for help. Yeah. Now, that's... A lot of people are like, "No, I don't ask for help."

Huge. Yeah. 

Patti: And ask for help. Don't say, "Man, it really would be nice if somebody would." Like, no. 

Jan: Or whine about it. Yeah. Or, you know, covertly. "I 

Patti: have to do this thing." You know? "

Jan: Oh, my life is so-" God, 

Patti: I hate that ... great. It's such a pet peeve for me. "

Jan: I have to do this thing." Like, 

Patti: use your word. Like, if somebody is like- 

Jan: Use your words

"Ugh, 

Patti: I have to, ugh, I'm gonna have to do all these things," like, "Do you need help? Are you, is this your way of a- ... wanting somebody to volunteer?" "

Jan: Oh, no, I just want to get through this. No prob." I know. Like- Isn't that crazy? 

Patti: Yeah. Use your... The number of times I've said to a specific human in my life- Please use your words is, you know, 

Jan: Yeah.

Patti: Well, if- Like, if you need something, just ask me. I'm happy to do it. Right. But I'm not gonna do it if you're gonna be passive aggressive. Like, and we do that. We, because we're afraid to ask for help or we have our walls. I'm guilty of this. I used to do this in my relationship. I would assume that he would, could read my mind if I looked a certain way or sighed a certain way.

Like, somehow he magically knew 

Jan: what my- Well, that's another thing- 

Patti: Yeah ... 

Jan: that's another thing I could get a quarter for and be rich. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: Is women who come in, and they- Oh, my gosh ... never ask their husband, and then they just carry this big, huge- Yeah ... bag of resentment. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah. I totally did that with him, totally.

Like, how did he... Like, we're laying in bed, and I am thinking about he should know that I'm feeling something, but I've said absolutely nothing about it. And he's just supposed to see that I'm looking a certain direction or sighing a certain way? Like, it's so... But I got that from my mother. Yeah. And, you know, yeah.

So seeing that- Yeah ... that was another part- Yeah ... of that defense. 

Jan: And, and that is so toxic for resentment- Oh, my God, 

Patti: yes ... 

Jan: and feeling like you're a victim. And, and you know, we believe people are not victims. We always have a choice- Mm-hmm ... once we're adults. I mean, it's a- Absolutely, yeah ... kids who are young, they are victimized, and, um, that's different.

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So that's the first one she talks about. Yeah. You know, you can explore that with all kinds of people, and they're like, "Whoa, I, uh, I don't know if I could ask for help." Yeah. Or, you know, "I, I don't know what to do. I can't do this." So the second one, which is one of my favorites because I get into this, don't say yes if you really want to say no- Mm

to avoid overextending yourself and getting resentful. So meaning how many times when people ask you for something, and this, you'd be a classic person because everyone's asking you for things. 

Mm-hmm. 

It... I say yes, and then I start getting resentful, and I overextend myself. Yeah. And then I punish my partner because I'm saying yes.

"Oh, I'll do the dishes. Oh, yeah, I'll pick that up." Mm-hmm. So don't say yes when you want to say no, and so this is what I started doing with that. I start, when people would ask me to do things, I'd, I'd think to myself Am I gonna be resentful if I say yes? Oh. And I go, "Yes, you are, Jan. You are gonna be really resentful.

Do not say yes." And many men who come in here, another quarter to make me rich- Mm ... um, say, "Oh, I can't say no to my wife because then she punishes me or she does, you know, gets resentful." Mm-hmm. And I said, "I understand that. That can happen if they're in their immature self or a part of them." But I said, "Really, you're gonna save your life because you're not gonna be walking around with this bag of resentment."

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: So remember to ask those questions. So what do you think of that? Don't you think that's a great one? 

Patti: I think that's brilliant. I love that stopping and asking yourself, "Am I going to resent this?" Like, yes, that's amazing, and that's like that taking that beat before just saying yes. Yeah, I'm a people pleaser- Yeah

so I'm a yes, yes, yes. Exactly. I always, yes, 100%. And so it's hard, those boundaries, that's so, so hard to t- put yourself first in that way. Yep. Yeah. And if you're going to feel a certain way and you're going to, like, push a boundary because you want to go out of your way to help somebody, that you're making that choice and saying, "I'm going to do this.

I know I don't wanna do this, but I'm not going to be resentful that I'm doing this." Right. Like, to really make it a conscious choice- That's- ... I think that's brilliant. 

Jan: Yes. 'Cause Pia would always say, "So then i- if you say yes, make sure that when you walk away you can't get resentful about it." Yeah. You cannot go, "I'm gonna punish them now."

I, I mean, they always keep asking me. No, that's your problem. Right. Yeah. So don't say yes when you wanna be saying no to avoid being resentful. Mm-hmm. I love that. Mm. That's one of my faves. Yeah. Because people pleasers do it all the time. All the time. They get in big trouble. Yeah. Big trouble. Mm-hmm. And then the last one is don't do for others what they can do for themselves to avoid enabling them.

Now you're laughing. What, what did that do? What 

Patti: does that- 'Cause I'm codependent- Mm ... and so I love... I'm a, I'm a people pleaser, I'm codependent, and I wanna save the world. Those are my little complexes. So what you just said is me. Like, I always- And, and I actually had to set that boundary to m- with my mother for myself- Oh, well then-

because she's, she was very sheltered and taken care of her entire life. Her sister always took care of her, and then she went with my father, and then immediately then, you know. So- she's always been babied her whole life. Yeah. And so she very easily fell into this role with me becoming caregiver. Mm-hmm.

And so everything, like she'll, she says things to me as if I'm her mother. Like, "Do I have to do..." Like, I'm not your mother. I don't... Yeah. And so it's very hard. And so it's for me, it's like I would step in and just automatically help with things and automatically, and so I had to do my own work and set that boundary because I was being- Yeah

resentful. I was saying yes to everything, and so I had to get to that point where I just wouldn't even offer. Mm-hmm. And I would say things like, "If you want me to do something, I need you to ask me. I'm not going to volunteer anymore. I'm not going to do these things." Yeah. Yeah. It was hard. And I'm not going to respond to the, "Well, I..."

Like, I just was really clear about that because I was feeling I had all these issues, and again, therapy, right? Therapy helped me to- ... to get there. Yeah. And so that's the way it is now, but I still internally wanna jump in and do things, and I have to stop myself because that's exactly right. Like, if they can do it for themselves, w- who, who are you to step in and take that independence- Yes

away from them also, right? Like, why do you think you can do it better? Like, in that way, like that was sometimes the way that I needed to do it is be like, it's kind of self-centered and egotistical in this one way to assume that you're gonna do something better or that they can't do something. 

Jan: Mm-hmm.

Patti: Right? 

Jan: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, people who are perfectionists, you know, they get into, uh- Yeah ... they can't do it, like, so I have to- Yeah ... do it for them, and they- Mm-hmm ... don't even ask. And what they're doing is really stunting the growth of- Yes ... their children, if we're talking about raising children, or their friends, uh, learning to be interdependent and- Yeah

um, be able to mature and grow, so. 

Patti: Yeah. And, and mature and grow together. 

Jan: Mm-hmm. 

Patti: Right? I mean, we're talking about relationships. I mean, that's the piece too, is when you're both allowing yourselves to hold space and grow, you're allowing yourselves to grow together in a really beautiful way, if that's the way that it works out.

Because sometimes you grow very differently, and that's okay- Mm-hmm ... too. But you're, you're not giving that person the opportunity to show up for themselves, to take care of- Yeah ... themselves, to show up for you. 

Jan: Yeah. 

Patti: You know? Yeah. 

Jan: Yeah. It's all the above. And, you know, so the ... So that's what Pia would always say, the three

and three golden rules of interdependence. Yeah. I-N-T-E-R dependence, rather- That's great ... anti or dependent. So- Yeah ... and, and so whenever I'd work with couples, I'd always talk to them about those and say, "Okay, so here's where you are, Mr. Jones. You've got ... You know, you're not saying no to her, and you're getting really resentful."

And then for the woman, "Well, you're not asking for what you need and want, and so you're getting very resentful." Yeah. And so no wonder couples who don't follow these rules are enabling someone and, and being resentful. Yeah. It all brings this whole kind of resentment up, and that is so toxic for a relationship.

That's, that is ... Y- Yeah ... you gotta get rid of that. 

Patti: Yeah. So. Yeah. I think the final thing is communication, communication, communication. Yeah. Like, my goodness, like so much would be fixed if we just got out of our heads and out of our little worlds and just said what we needed, said what we felt. And n- Mm-hmm

and, and it is hard. It's hard because you don't know how somebody will respond. You don't know. You can't control that. But again- If you don't say something bec- so this was actually an issue in, in, in my last relationship is he would... This was his way of not wanting to express himself and, and his own inability to kind of express himself, but he would put it on me and he would say, "Well, I didn't wanna say anything because I thought you w- how you'd react," this and that.

And I would always be like, "You act like I'm some crazy person that's gonna, like, fly off the handle," which I- And that's not up to 

Jan: you 

Patti: how you would react ... I never did. And, and yeah. 

Jan: No, that's you. 

Patti: And that's what I would say- That's you ... is I'm like, "You're not giving me a chance to even respond- Yeah ... or to show you that that's, like, for me to grow or to change or, you know, 'cause maybe I responded a certain way in the past and so he didn't think I'd respond well.

Like, well, that was two years ago. I've grown as a person. You're not allowing me to show up and to take something in, and you're not trusting me. You're not trusting that I'm going to hear you and sit with it and then respond. You're, you're assuming I'm gonna be reactive. You're like, you're making up a lot about me.

And when we make up about each other- 

Jan: There we go, make up. Mm-hmm ... 

Patti: yeah, we're, we're just i- some fake person that you're, you're creating, which I think is, when we come back to choosing love and that idea of looking for love is a lotta times we're making up an idea of who we want and this, you know, and, and-

like, this ideal of love- It's a fantasy ... and we're in love with the idea- Mm-hmm ... of being in love. Mm-hmm. And that's what keeps us sometimes with people when it's not, we're not looking at the real relationship and the real interaction because we're in love with the potential. We're in love with an idea.

We're, we're wanting a, a love. We're in fantasy. We're 

Jan: in fantasy. 

Patti: We're in fantasy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and you can't be in fantasy when you're in a real relationship, 'cause it's not. It's not all sunshines and roses. And sometimes it is, and sometimes it's amazing and- Mm-hmm ... and there's all these really great things.

But also- Just like life, it's hard, and it's real, and it's raw, and like, but the best you can do is be honest, trust, and allow that person to show up. Yeah. And if that person doesn't show up, and doesn't show up for you, and doesn't show up- Right ... then that gives you everything you need to know, and you can't change that.

Jan: That's 

Patti: right. And I think that's the biggest thing when it comes to all relationships. 

Jan: Showing up, I love that word, uh, is showing up. And though in order for someone to show up, you've gotta be able to tell them they're not showing up- Yes ... um, or what you want. Right. And this is why it's really important.

Yeah. Terry Real, who I did train with for, uh, about four years, he, uh, talked about that lo- it first starts out, he, this is what he would always say about relationship, it's love without knowledge. You know, you fall in love. You're in fantasy. Yeah. You're everything I want it to be. And then, you know, a year or two goes by, maybe children, and then it's knowledge without love.

It's like- Mm ... oh, my God, who did I marry? What is this? This is crazy. I don't like this person. Interesting. And he said that that's where most people get stuck, right there. And then there's a last cycle where you go and you learn to repair, and repair is we're, what we're talking about here, the practice of something every day.

Yeah. The practice of loving. Yeah. The practice of structuring time together, the practice of being able to get help if you need it, if you're really stuck. And, you know, and then what Pia was saying is the practice of asking for what you need and want, I need you to show up for me. Yeah. Um, the practice of saying no.

And no, sh- oh, this is one thing she used to say, which I loved, is that she said, "You should always learn, in a couple relationship, to celebrate the no." I remember- Oh, yeah ... telling it to these guys, and they're like, "Oh my God, what does that mean?" Yeah, celebrate the no, is first of all, when you said no, it's an act of saying self-care for yourself.

No, I can't pick up your dry cleaning, because I have too many things I have to do today. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And can your partner get the no, and can they survive? Can they still go, "Oh, I can still get through this. Doesn't mean that he doesn't love me, it just means he's taking care of himself." Yeah. That's great. And so that's, those are the reasons to celebrate no, is that they actually help the relationship.

And most people- Yeah ... then take it personally. 

Patti: Yeah. 

Jan: And then, and so no is important, and the last one is the enabling piece that you were talking about. Yeah. Is getting in the way of somebody else growing up, and really doing it for them, keeping them small. So. 

Patti: Yeah. Yeah, and I think when we talk about showing up, I think it's important to say, like, when we, we allow them to show up, but we also need to tell them if they're not showing up, what does showing up look like for me?

Because showing up- Exactly ... for me is gonna look different than showing up for you. Mm-hmm. Because, and that's where I think, like, I have issues sometimes with the whole what is your love language thing. I think that there's- Yeah ... I think it's kind of bullshit in this way, but at the same time- ... I like the idea of taking time to learn what...

Because that's what that is, is really- Mm-hmm ... the love language thing is, is what does showing up mean for me? Like, what, how can, what does it- Mm ... mean for me, or how do I understand when somebody is telling me that they care or something like that? Mm. And like, you know, for me, 

Jan: I like- And that comes with the listening part.

Yeah. Listening to each other. Yeah. And do- this is who I am. And I think that's really important. And there's another thing that people need to know about relationship before we, we end here- Yeah ... is that Terry Real's model for working with couples, emotionally focused model for working with couples, and I would even say, um, El- Ellen Bader's, uh, relational model, developmental model for couples at the Couples Institute, that there's a pattern that everybody has in a relationship.

Like, let's say the woman is like- a complainer and is never asking for things or just complaining all the time. 

Yeah. 

And the more she complains to her husband, the more he feels incapable of being able to meet her needs, so he starts withdrawing. Yeah. And when he withdraws, the more she pursues him, and the more he withdraws, the more she pursues him, and it's this vicious cycle, and that's what, what in couples work is you get to look again at yourself, what part of that cycle am I doing, and turning around and changing that, and that's the, the patterns they call it.

Kerry called it more and more, the more the more. Um, the EFT people call it your, um, your negative core, uh, pattern cycle. Yeah. So but that, that also has to do with us examining ourselves. We're back to that again. 

Patti: Yeah, yeah. 

Jan: Working our side of it, right? 

Patti: Yep. Yeah. So I think the best resource that you can have to move forward in relationship with people, um, is to get therapy-

get help- 

Jan: Right ... 

Patti: and, and work on yourself. Yeah. Just start, take little steps. To start being aware of yourself- Exactly ... and be aware of your feelings- Mm-hmm ... be aware of how you're communicating, and just start small because we're talking, like these are ... If you've not been doing those things that we're talking about, you can't, it, it, you can't just do it all at once and make the, these- Right

changes. But these are little things that you can start incorporating. Start setting your date nights. Start, you know, start with two minutes of talking in the morning- Right ... and listening. You know, like- 

Jan: Right ... 

Patti: just start changing the way you're showing up for yourself. Start- Yeah ... pay- paying attention to how you're showing up on your side of the street.

Right. I think that's the best way to start, and, and start small and let it grow and see what happens, you know? Mm-hmm. I 

Jan: mean, more of this is, um, a- and we'll put it in our resources we have, I'll, I'll send them to you, is, uh, in Pia Mellody's book, um, The Intimacy Factor, she talks all about speaking and listening.

Terry Real- Mm ... in a lot of his book talks about the same thing. Ellen Bader, in her books, she talks about the same thing. And Pia, and, and even in my book, which is, uh, Gifts From a Challenging Childhood, that covers some of those things about needs and wants and, and reality and who am I. And- Yeah ... so all of this c- what we're kind of encouraging people is if your relationships are struggling, get help.

Yeah. And some of these things that we're talking about are very essential. 

Patti: Yeah. And if your relationship is not struggling, start putting this stuff into play now so that it won't struggle- I like that ... in the future, or that you're ready and you have some tools in your tool belt, because at some point your relationship will struggle.

That's just life. Yeah. And how much of a struggle and how long it struggles is dependent on the amount of work you guys are doing together, I think. So. 

Jan: Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 

Patti: Well, thanks for sharing this, Jan. You're welcome. This was a great- 

Jan: Thanks, Patty ... 

Patti: yeah, great 

Jan: conversation. I hope you enjoyed it. It was kind of right off the top of my head, so- 

Patti: Yeah

you know? Well, yeah. Your, your sons are very lucky to have such a wise mother. 

Jan: I don't, I don't know about that. Of course my, you know, I don't ... I try to stay on my side of the things rather than jumping in. Mm. So they have to come to me if they want any, uh, ask about that stuff. 

Patti: That's great. Yeah. Well, thank you, as 

Jan: always.

Well, thank 

you. 

And, uh, we'll, we'll see each other again. We will. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with friends, subscribe, and leave a review. 

Patti: And remember, information shared on this podcast is not medical advice. If you have a concern about your physical or mental health, please seek support from a professional.

Jan: If you have a story you'd like to share about things your mother forgot to mention, you can apply to be a guest. 

Patti: We'd also love to hear a quick 90-second thing you've learned in your life. 

Jan: You can find links to both of those over at our website at 

Patti: thingsmymotherforgottomention.com or in the show notes.

Jan: Thank you.